Abortion and paganism- a connection?

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Asbestos_Mango

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This thought drifted into my mind the other night, and I can’t quite shake it.

I occurred to me that abortion became legal just about the time paganism began creeping into our religious belief systems.

Nearly all of the ancient pagan cultures practiced human sacrifice in some form or another at some point in their history, and many of them practiced child sacrifice (a fact I am particularly fond of pointing out to pagan acquaintances).

The modern pagans I know would be horrified at the idea of sacrificing a human being, especially a child, to their gods/goddesses, but…

Nearly all of them are pro-choice.

Human sacrifice was practiced generally to induce the deities to satisfy some material need of the community- an abundant harvest, fertility, make sure the sun comes up tomorrow morning, etc.

Abortion is generally justified by the idea that the parents “can’t afford the child”- in other words, the unborn child is sacrificed to the satisfaction of the material needs of the parents.

I’m starting to think that maybe there is an unspoken spiritual dimension to abortion - that in some kind of indirect, roundabout way, the aborted children are being received by the pagan “gods” (demons) as a sacrifice.

Any thoughts?

Am I just nuts?
 
It is more to be understood as a satanic plot to corrupt and destroy. As much as paganism is subject to satanism you are right.
 
It true in the bible there were cultures that practiced child sacrifice.

Today I think abortion is a satanic attack to prevent the spreading of the gospel of Christ based on the following.
  1. For Diversion::Because Christians are engaged in the pro-life battle this forces us to divert the following
  2. prayer resources to the pro life cause
  3. financial resources to the pro life cause
  4. personal resources to the pro life cause
therefore our ability to spread the gospel of Christ in hampered
  1. To wreaking the west
    In the modern world most of the christian outreach is preformed by western nations primarily the USA ( in terms of personal and financial support) , If Satan can force god judgement on the west by abortion he therefore removes his greatest earthly opponent
 
I think you are absolutely right. If you look back those cultures that did human sacrifices it is always stated that those who were sacrificed were either okay with the sacrifice or unworthy in the society. I remember being told that in the Mayan sacrifices those sacrificed were looked at as people who were needed to be sacrificed.

Now i believe that human sacrifices have really never stopped but have been going on just under a different disguise. In the 1900’s, we saw many new human sacrifices. In those cultures that this has been going on in, the people sacrificed were deemed unworthy for the society and were even dehumanized. In Germany we saw this with the Jewish Holocaust. In Africa we saw this with Tutsi genocide.

Here in the free world we see this with those who are demand unworthy of being in our society. The elderly are considered unproductive and burden some. The sick and disabled are thought to be a liability. And the unborn are thought to only be in the way. They are all sacrificed for the good of the society. By killing those who are un-needed we are securing are own longevity, from the gods of our own needs.

There is nothing different that we do here in the free world that those who lived in the time of the human sacrifice or those who have preformed holocausts and genocides. We only have now blinded ourselves to believe that we are more civilized and better educated. But when you brake down their culture and ours you will see that we still worship the same gods. The gods of self improvement.
 
Driving Bear thinks [sign] abortion is a satanic attack to prevent the spreading of the gospel of [/sign]

It seems to me the heart of the message of Jesus was to defend the dignity of human beings. He came for all the marginalized: the sick, the blind and the lame. Contrary to being a diversionary tactic it forces us to look more deeply into the mystery of the Incarnation. The Son of God allowed himself to become as small, dependent and vulnerable as a human baby. We can never dismiss any human being no matter how small, dependent or vulnerable because He became one of us and took on all our weaknesses. When Jesus lowered himself to us he lifted all humanity up. Every time I hold a baby in my arms I contemplate this mystery.
 
No, I don’t really think so. I’ve just been cutting them down after about 12. I think this is becoming the point people start to follow and are just trying to help.
 
Check out this site:

crossveil.org/choice.html

It completely supports your thoughts about an abortion/paganism connection. It doesn’t mention if neo-paganism ushered in the age of abortion, but it surely shows that it’s embraced the holocust.

Cari
 
Even without human sacrifice, abortion is pagan. Abortion is pagan along with relativism and all that ****. Whatever was bad in the graeco-roman philosophy of the NT times is coming back in new wordings, or not even. Paganism is all that drive to man-made beliefs, man-made morality, user-friendly relativist interface to all the philosophical considerations that pop up.
 
Asbestos_Mango said:
This thought drifted into my mind the other night, and I can’t quite shake it.

I occurred to me that abortion became legal just about the time paganism began creeping into our religious belief systems.

Nearly all of the ancient pagan cultures practiced human sacrifice in some form or another at some point in their history, and many of them practiced child sacrifice (a fact I am particularly fond of pointing out to pagan acquaintances).

The modern pagans I know would be horrified at the idea of sacrificing a human being, especially a child, to their gods/goddesses, but…

Nearly all of them are pro-choice.

Human sacrifice was practiced generally to induce the deities to satisfy some material need of the community- an abundant harvest, fertility, make sure the sun comes up tomorrow morning, etc.

Abortion is generally justified by the idea that the parents “can’t afford the child”- in other words, the unborn child is sacrificed to the satisfaction of the material needs of the parents.

I’m starting to think that maybe there is an unspoken spiritual dimension to abortion - that in some kind of indirect, roundabout way, the aborted children are being received by the pagan “gods” (demons) as a sacrifice.

Any thoughts?

Am I just nuts?
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Personally, I think your nuts…(just kidding)
but seriously, no, i think you are incorrect on that one. Pagans in my experience are seeking a closer relationship with the devine. Most of them adhere to a general code of not harming anyone including nature. If anything pagans would be more likely to be anti- global warming than anything.
There are two thoughts that come into my mind simulatneously:
  1. Neo-Pagans would try to aviod the harming of another at exceptional costs, and in addition to that thought, they also abhor the practice of both human and animal sacrifice. It is important to remember that Neo-Pagans do not practice or even hold the same beliefs as ancient pagans in regard to sacrifices. Most of their sacrifices of today are plant/food based or in some cases, deed based.
  2. This brings me to my second thought, you would have to agree that abortion was a sacrifice and knowlingly offer it up as such in order for it to be a “sacrifice” such as what you are describing.
    If you say that is not true, then using the same logic as the OP- would not, then , christians who had abortions be making a human child sacrifice to the Holy Trinity? and then how would they be that much different from ancient pagans themselves?
  3. In addition one would have to believe that life begins at conception for the idea of a human sacrifice to even be possible. It isn’t truely a sacrifice unless you know it to be one and offer it up as such. We all know that christians and non- christians a like have differing opinions on whether life begins at conception, no matter what teachings say.
    If one does not believe that conception is the begining of life, then they do not believe they are killing a human and therefore could not be offering a human sacrifice…
In short, Pagans having abortions are no different from Muslam’s having abortions, from chritians having abortions, from atheists having abortions.
 
rayne100 said:
  1. Neo-Pagans would try to aviod the harming of another at exceptional costs, and in addition to that thought, they also abhor the practice of both human and animal sacrifice. It is important to remember that Neo-Pagans do not practice or even hold the same beliefs as ancient pagans in regard to sacrifices. Most of their sacrifices of today are plant/food based or in some cases, deed based.
  2. This brings me to my second thought, you would have to agree that abortion was a sacrifice and knowlingly offer it up as such in order for it to be a “sacrifice” such as what you are describing.
    If you say that is not true, then using the same logic as the OP- would not, then , christians who had abortions be making a human child sacrifice to the Holy Trinity? and then how would they be that much different from ancient pagans themselves?
  3. In addition one would have to believe that life begins at conception for the idea of a human sacrifice to even be possible. It isn’t truely a sacrifice unless you know it to be one and offer it up as such. We all know that christians and non- christians a like have differing opinions on whether life begins at conception, no matter what teachings say.
    If one does not believe that conception is the begining of life, then they do not believe they are killing a human and therefore could not be offering a human sacrifice…
In short, Pagans having abortions are no different from Muslam’s having abortions, from chritians having abortions, from atheists having abortions.
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Interesting points! However, I have a few areas I’d disagree with:
  1. You hold that Neo-pagans, “do not practice or even hold the same beliefs as ancient pagans in regard to sacrifices. Most of their sacrifices of today are plant/food based or in some cases, deed based.” I would have to argue that “neo-paganism” is not a coherent set of beliefs shared by all who claim the term “pagan”. Instead, it is a movement made up of wildly varying, eclectic practices from many different cultures. While SOME neo-pagans are the earthy type you seem to describe, there are also some who are far more bloodthirsty in their personal beliefs and rituals. It is entirely conceivable that some neo-pagans do, in fact, believe in, and practice, human sacrifice. Hoping that all of them limit their sacrifices to the plant/food area is just that- a hope.
  2. Your statement that a sacrifice has to be made knowingly is an interesting one. I would argue that the women who have abortions ARE knowingly sacrificing their children. They might not be sacrificing them to a diety, but they ARE sacrificing the baby to themselves. They are giving up their children to have a better life/save money/not have to deal with the burden of a special needs child/etc. This is a sacrifice- however, not to a diety, but to the self.
    The question is- is this idea pagan in origin? Or, can a child offered up, no matter the reason, “benefit” a diety? Personally, I believe that any “diety” other than the Blessed Trinity is a demon, and in that case, even if the demon didn’t get the “benefits” of the child sacrifice, it still got the benefit of a human soul now in mortal danger of Hell.
  3. Your third point hinges, again, on the nature of sacrifice, which is a very interesting one. It also hinges on the weight of personal belief, which isn’t so interesting. It doesn’t matter what the individual having the abortion thinks- both God and science have proven that life begins at conception. What the individual thinks doesn’t change that. I can think all I want that my car doesn’t run on gas, but rather on wishes and moonbeams, but thinking doesn’t make it so (sadly, with gas prices being what they are). Even if the person having the abortion doesn’t think the baby is alive, they are still sacrificing the “potential” for life for their own purposes.
Ultimately, there is a sacrifice involved, and every woman having an abortion knows it. She is sacrificing another human’s life (even if she insists on calling it simply the “potental” for one) for her own.
 
GK Chesterton, in his book The Everlasting Man made a point I thought interesting–he said that human sacrifice tended to happen among more advanced cultures. The Mayans were advanced for their time, and he gave other examples that I’ve completely forgotten now. I was really surprised b/c I’d always thought the opposite, but I think maybe he’s right. The more advanced we get now, the more babies we kill.
 
Cari said:
Interesting points! However, I have a few areas I’d disagree with:
  1. You hold that Neo-pagans, “do not practice or even hold the same beliefs as ancient pagans in regard to sacrifices. Most of their sacrifices of today are plant/food based or in some cases, deed based.” I would have to argue that “neo-paganism” is not a coherent set of beliefs shared by all who claim the term “pagan”. Instead, it is a movement made up of wildly varying, eclectic practices from many different cultures. While SOME neo-pagans are the earthy type you seem to describe, there are also some who are far more bloodthirsty in their personal beliefs and rituals. It is entirely conceivable that some neo-pagans do, in fact, believe in, and practice, human sacrifice. Hoping that all of them limit their sacrifices to the plant/food area is just that- a hope.
  2. Your statement that a sacrifice has to be made knowingly is an interesting one. I would argue that the women who have abortions ARE knowingly sacrificing their children. They might not be sacrificing them to a diety, but they ARE sacrificing the baby to themselves. They are giving up their children to have a better life/save money/not have to deal with the burden of a special needs child/etc. This is a sacrifice- however, not to a diety, but to the self.
    The question is- is this idea pagan in origin? Or, can a child offered up, no matter the reason, “benefit” a diety? Personally, I believe that any “diety” other than the Blessed Trinity is a demon, and in that case, even if the demon didn’t get the “benefits” of the child sacrifice, it still got the benefit of a human soul now in mortal danger of Hell.
  3. Your third point hinges, again, on the nature of sacrifice, which is a very interesting one. It also hinges on the weight of personal belief, which isn’t so interesting. It doesn’t matter what the individual having the abortion thinks- both God and science have proven that life begins at conception. What the individual thinks doesn’t change that. I can think all I want that my car doesn’t run on gas, but rather on wishes and moonbeams, but thinking doesn’t make it so (sadly, with gas prices being what they are). Even if the person having the abortion doesn’t think the baby is alive, they are still sacrificing the “potential” for life for their own purposes.
Ultimately, there is a sacrifice involved, and every woman having an abortion knows it. She is sacrificing another human’s life (even if she insists on calling it simply the “potental” for one) for her own.
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thanks for the dialogue…
I agree that there are some holes in my reasoning but like I said, they just came to mind as I was reading the OP.
This issue is really is this rise in abortion due to paganism, my answer is I highly doubt it. There are still just as many christians and muslims and hindus and athiests that have abortions as due pagans. I don’t think that you can equate the rise in abortions to one particular religion. I would be interested to see if the OP has further statistics that prove that pagans are the overall majority of abortion seekers.
Keep in mind, one may be pro- choice in theory but not in personal practice, meaning that (and this is just the debate talking) I can be pro- choice, however choose not to have an abortion myself.
 
rayne-

My point wasn’t so much about the individual beliefs of pagans, especially with regards to sacrifice, so much as about the gods they worship.

The pagan culture is influencing both secular and Christian culture, to the point where the belief in moral laws is seriously eroding. A lot of things that were once almost universally held to be morally wrong, including premarital sex and homosexual sex, as well as abortion are now considered to be pretty much OK by the culture at large.

This erosion coincided with the increasing popularity of pagan religious beliefs- and the popularity of the worship of pagan gods who once demanded human sacrifice.
 
aurora77 said:
GK Chesterton, in his book The Everlasting Man made a point I thought interesting–he said that human sacrifice tended to happen among more advanced cultures. The Mayans were advanced for their time, and he gave other examples that I’ve completely forgotten now. I was really surprised b/c I’d always thought the opposite, but I think maybe he’s right. The more advanced we get now, the more babies we kill.
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I recently read that book (for the fourth time- It was the first of GKC’s books I read and my favorite) and he talked about the Carthaginans, who were founded by the Phoenicians, and who practiced child sacrifice.
 
There are those out there who think the two are related. I read an article once about a wiccan who got pregnant so she could abort and offer as a sacrifice the “life growing within”. It was really creepy.

Anyway, you just have to look at euthaniasa of the new born, in places like the Netherlands. In Roman times “child exposure” was more then acceptable if the parents couldn’t afford the baby or didn’t like the look of it.

I had a classics professor who said once, that every society that had ever had child sacrifice or killed its children, did not survive, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptains (at one stage) the Aztecs, et cetera. He followed up with a comment that riled all the feminiazis. “We’ve killed more then they ever did… when will our time be up?”

And he wasn’t even Christain!
 
Asbestos_Mango said:
rayne-

My point wasn’t so much about the individual beliefs of pagans, especially with regards to sacrifice, so much as about the gods they worship.

The pagan culture is influencing both secular and Christian culture, to the point where the belief in moral laws is seriously eroding. A lot of things that were once almost universally held to be morally wrong, including premarital sex and homosexual sex, as well as abortion are now considered to be pretty much OK by the culture at large.

This erosion coincided with the increasing popularity of pagan religious beliefs- and the popularity of the worship of pagan gods who once demanded human sacrifice.
Click to expand...
AM- I see what you are getting at. I can’t say that I agree with the theory but it certainly is an interesting concept. Thanks for bringin it up.🙂
Rayne
 
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