Abortion in the Bible and Early Christian Writings, Part 1

[SHW]

But this doesn’t answer the question!!!
Why will God do nothing even if we plead with him to stop what is happening!

We are definitely off-topic , but I will answer this last question. If you have more, you can PM me or start another thread and let us know the link.

To answer your question:

Because it is not His will to do so. We must imitate His Son in His sufferings in order to be found worthy/approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. [James 1:12]

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

We become obedient through suffering. What is at stake is our eternal destination, not our earthly comfort. Suffering perfects us if we cooperate with God’s plan/purpose.

Hebrews 2:10 “For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain (Jesus) of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

Romans 8:18 “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

There are many other Scripture verses which support these. Jesus suffered terribly in order for us to be able to inherit eternal life. We are called to imitate Him.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

 

[Zundrah]

We are definitely off-topic , but I will answer this last question. If you have more, you can PM me or start another thread and let us know the link.

To answer your question:

Because it is not His will to do so. We must imitate His Son in His sufferings in order to be found worthy/approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. [James 1:12]

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

We become obedient through suffering. What is at stake is our eternal destination, not our earthly comfort. Suffering perfects us if we cooperate with God’s plan/purpose.

Hebrews 2:10 “For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain (Jesus) of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

Romans 8:18 “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”

There are many other Scripture verses which support these. Jesus suffered terribly in order for us to be able to inherit eternal life. We are called to imitate Him.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

hmmmmm… I’m still at a loss.
Sorry for corrupting this thread, but do any of you wonder what it would be like at the end, just to be with him? No one could hurt us then, we would be with the Lord.

 

[NoelFitz]

Zundrah,

We are still off-topic, but I am completely with you.

Your basic question is:
*Why will God do nothing even if we plead with him to stop what is happening! *

There is no answer.

StThomas Aquinas said all we can have is informed ignorance about God and St Augustine said that if we think we understand God we have made an idol.

The sin of our first parents was to try to be like God and understand him (pride).

All we can do is love God and our neighbor, within the Church. and hope for the best.

Any more quotes about abortion in the early Church?

 

[Zundrah]

Zundrah,

We are still off-topic, but I am completely with you.

Your basic question is:
*Why will God do nothing even if we plead with him to stop what is happening! *

There is no answer.

StThomas Aquinas said all we can have is informed ignorance about God and St Augustine said that if we think we understand God we have made an idol.

The sin of our first parents was to try to be like God and understand him (pride).

All we can do is love God and our neighbor, within the Church. and hope for the best.

Any more quotes about abortion in the early Church?

Abortion in the early church? - well there is this passage in the bible (some where) that says, “Your body and life belongs to God, who are you to change it or to take it away?”

So this does in some way refer to abortion too. We have no right to take that life away because it belongs to God, not us. How’s that?

 

[guanophore]

But this doesn’t answer the question!!!
Why will God do nothing even if we plead with him to stop what is happening!

It does answer the question, Zundrah. God gave us free will, and in doing so, made it possible for us to choose evil. It is part of the expression of HIs love (freedom).

As far as evil, God allows evil that greater good may come from it. We see that He did not spare His own son, but offered Him up for our sins. Jesus also prayed that the cup of suffering would be taken from Him, but it was not. If the eternal Son of God can suffer the evil of a cruel death, so that greater good can come, who are we to expect less? Jesus taught that a servant is not greater than his master. Therefore, we are to take up our crosses (the evil in our lives) and follow Him, even unto death. Whatever evil He has allowed in our lives is so that He can bring greater good from it.

We are products of the events that have occured in our lives. Had things not happened as they did, we would not be the people we are today. He wants to heal us, to make us whole, and for His love to live through us, even our wounds.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore,

Thank you for your contribution.

And thank you for yours!

I see you have 13378 posts here, Congratulations.

What is the etymology of Guanophore?

I am trying to catch Puzzleannie.

a guanophore is a luminescent microscopic life form

I also see your religion is* Catholic (Ruthenianized Latin)*. What does this mean?

When I returned to the Church after many years, I had become very serious about my faith. I found myself disgusted with the abuses of the Novus Ordo in the majority of parishes. I found the Byzantine church a few blocks from my home consistently practiced the dignity that my heart desired in the Divine Liturgy.

hmmmmm… I’m still at a loss.
Sorry for corrupting this thread, but do any of you wonder what it would be like at the end, just to be with him? No one could hurt us then, we would be with the Lord.

Every day!

However, He does not want us to wait. He wants us to experience this right now.

 

[guanophore]

Abortion in the early church? - well there is this passage in the bible (some where) that says, “Your body and life belongs to God, who are you to change it or to take it away?”

So this does in some way refer to abortion too. We have no right to take that life away because it belongs to God, not us. How’s that?

Yes, but most pro-abortionists are not Christian, and do not feel bound by what the Scripture says. They say that what is in the woman is the “by products of conception” and don’t consider it a person. “It” (the baby) is not considered (legally) a person until “it” is born, at which point “it” becomes a person, and supposedly has legal rights.

 

[NoelFitz]

Abortion in the early church? - well there is this passage in the bible (some where) that says, “Your body and life belongs to God, who are you to change it or to take it away?”

So this does in some way refer to abortion too. We have no right to take that life away because it belongs to God, not us. How’s that?

The Bible condemns murder/killing. * Thou shalt not kill*. Many quotations can be found about murder, but I am looking for specific references to abortion in the early Church.

 

[Zundrah]

Yes, but most pro-abortionists are not Christian, and do not feel bound by what the Scripture says. They say that what is in the woman is the “by products of conception” and don’t consider it a person. “It” (the baby) is not considered (legally) a person until “it” is born, at which point “it” becomes a person, and supposedly has legal rights.

… That sounds very cold and mean, who came up with the idea that a baby is not a human being until born!?

 

[SHW]

… That sounds very cold and mean, who came up with the idea that a baby is not a human being until born!?

“They” are those persons who want to kill/murder human beings in the womb. Not all persons have the same motive for the killing/murder, but they all have the same desire: to get rid of the “womb’s contents” so that a baby cannot be born.

 

[NoelFitz]

**
Zundrah**

You wrote:
View Post

… That sounds very cold and mean, who came up with the idea that a baby is not a human being until born!?

As I quoted right at the berginning of this topic, Augustine had difficulties about deciding if the unborn were human.

Augustine
The City of God, bk 22, ch 12
For if there is to be equality, where shall those abortions, supposing that they rise again, get that bulk which they had not here? Or if they shall not rise because they were not born but cast out, they raise the same question about children who have died in childhood, asking us whence they get the stature which we see they had not here; for we will not say that those who have been not only born, but born again, shall not rise again.

 

[SHW]

**
As I quoted right at the berginning of this topic, Augustine had difficulties about deciding if the unborn were human.**

He personally does not know if these aborted human souls will “rise again.” If they rise again, he does not personally know if they will have bodies.

Chapter 13.— Whether Abortions, If They are Numbered Among the Dead, Shall Not Also Have a Part in the Resurrection.

To these objections, then, of our adversaries which I have thus detailed, I will now reply, trusting that God will mercifully assist my endeavors. That abortions, which, even supposing they were alive in the womb, did also die there, shall rise again, I make bold neither to affirm nor to deny, although I fail to see why, if they are not excluded from the number of the dead, they should not attain to the resurrection of the dead. For either all the dead shall not rise, and there will be to all eternity some souls without bodies though they once had them—only in their mother’s womb, indeed; or, if all human souls shall receive again the bodies which they had wherever they lived, and which they left when they died, then I do not see how I can say that even those who died in their mother’s womb shall have no resurrection. But whichever of these opinions any one may adopt concerning them, we must at least apply to them, if they rise again, all that we have to say of infants who have been born.

The Apocalypse of Peter

 

[NoelFitz]

SHW

Thank you so much for your detailed and scholarly reply to me. I appreciate all the time you took in answering me. Posts like yours make me realize more fully why I find this forum so excellent.

First of all you note that Augustine **personally **gives his views. What other way could he do it? He was not inspired, even though always one must be aware of the possibility of Divine providence influencing writers.

The key point is Augustine was not sure if the unborn were human persons similar to the born. Nowadays we have modern science and we can see the human in the womb and with advanced Cesarean sections premature babies can live. So we know that the unborn are humans.

You have given me extra quotes on abortion. These are exactly what I want. Thanks so much. They add to our collection.

I am also grateful for the web site you mention, about which I was unaware.

I see you are interested in reading and hiking. Reading and hill-walking are also among my interests. You say you work in research. Is this scientific or in the humanities?

 

[guanophore]

Just one question for you; Why did God let them do it?

I can never seem to answer that question my self…

God created humanity out of His love, and desires to have eternal fellowship with His creation. In order for the totality of loving fellowship to occur, man must be free to choose. Think about it this way; if a man says he really loves a woman, but forced her choices in order that she would conform her life to his, is this really love?

The innate freedom with which we have been created requires that humans be free to choose evil, instead of good.

But this doesn’t answer the question!!!
Why will God do nothing even if we plead with him to stop what is happening!

You are assuming that “God will do nothing to stop…” what is happening. In fact, Jesus prayed to His father in the garden that He not have to be nailed to the cross (let this cup pass from me). Yet, God did not even spare His own son. There is evil in the world, and God permits it, so that greater good can come out of it.

God is much more interested in healing you, and having your wounds be a testimony to his grace.

hmmmmm… I’m still at a loss.
Sorry for corrupting this thread, but do any of you wonder what it would be like at the end, just to be with him? No one could hurt us then, we would be with the Lord.

God does not want us to wait for “the end”, but to be with Him now, and understand to the depth of our being that no one can take us from His love. I suggest you read the above post again, about tribulation and sufferings.

… That sounds very cold and mean, who came up with the idea that a baby is not a human being until born!?

This was the conclusion of the United States supreme court in the landmark case of Roe vs Wade. In the US, the duty of the court is to define how the constitution is applied. In the constitution of the US, it is stated that everyone is created equal under God, and that all persons have the right to life. In 1973, the court decreed that the life within the womb is not a “person” until born, and therefore, is not to be afforded the protection of citizenship (right to life) until it is separated from the mother.

 

[SHW]

First of all you note that Augustine **personally **gives his views. What other way could he do it? He was not inspired, even though always one must be aware of the possibility of Divine providence influencing writers.

The key point is Augustine was not sure if the unborn were human persons similar to the born. Nowadays we have modern science and we can see the human in the womb and with advanced Cesarean sections premature babies can live. So we know that the unborn are humans.

The reason that I said that this is Augustine’s personal view is that he wrote this sometime during the years 354 - 430 A.D. However, Tertullian wrote the following much earlier in 210 A.D.:

“Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does” (The Soul, 27).

Tertullian taught that life begins at conception. I think he was fully aware that it is human life/body with a human soul, since without a doubt, a human being is born when it leaves the womb. The OT taught that “the life of the flesh is in the blood.” [Leviticus 17:11] If there is blood, then there is life in the flesh so life begins at conception.

I am not aware of a particular date that the Church “first” made a “formal pronouncement” which declared that life begins at conception, but perhaps it was in the oral traditions of the Church since even before Tertullian’s day. Augustine gave his own opinion and he stated that he was not sure if he was correct about never-born (aborted) children rising from the dead.

I think this “life begins at conception doctrine” is an example of what the Church calls the “Development of Doctrine” and this “doctrine of the development of doctrine” has its origins in the Apostolic Oral Tradition of the Church and/or Scripture Tradition of the Church as do all Catholic doctrines.


http://tinyurl.com/m4eb5e

“We must keep in mind the references that Jesus made to the development of doctrine in His teaching. In the Gospel according to Saint John, for example, we read: When He comes, however, being the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but will speak only what He hears. He will announce to you the things to come. In doing this, He will give glory to Me because He will have received from Me what He will announce to you.” Just before this Jesus said, “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.” Jesus is also recorded as saying, “When the Paraclete comes, the Spirit of Truth Who comes from the Father, and Who I Myself will send from the Father, He will bear witness on My behalf.” He also said, “The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you.”

The Apostles had to decide the “circumcision question” for the New Covenant with the Holy Spirit’s guidance. This was not part of the infused knowledge they received when they became filled with the Holy Spirit at/on Pentecost. New questions will be made known and will need to be answered throughout the ages until Jesus returns. Peter later ruled on eating “non-kosher meats” because of visions from heaven.

You have given me extra quotes on abortion. These are exactly what I want. Thanks so much. They add to our collection.

I am also grateful for the web site you mention, about which I was unaware.

You are welcome. Glad I could help.

You say you work in research. Is this scientific or in the humanities?

Both. Depends on the project. My husband adds his own areas of interest that he wants researched, too, since he does not have the time to do it himself.