Abortion of babies conceived with violence

[4EverHis]

the Church does not teach it’s acceptable to have abortion in ANY circumstance… even in rape.

I believe that each child is a gift.

I read this story once that was so hearbreaking and beautiful at the same time…

Going the Distance
By Patrick Madrid

*Forgiveness *
Over this past year, I’ve reflected, as Pope John Paul II has called on Catholics everywhere to reflect, on the new millennium that has been rising to meet us. And now it’s finally here. The time for preparation has come and gone, and this new stage in our journey homeward is already starting to unfold.

Forgiveness and reconciliation have been the twin themes at the center of the Holy Father’s messages to the world these last several years. His message to Christians and non-Christians, to the head of state and to the man in the street, to everyone, has been: “Forgive one another. Seek forgiveness from those whom you have wronged, and offer forgiveness to those who have wronged you.”

In his message for the January 1, 2000 World Day of Peace, Pope John Paul said, “The Great Jubilee is inseparably linked to this message of love and reconciliation, a message which gives voice to the truest aspirations of humanity today . . . . In the century we are leaving behind, humanity has been sorely tried by an endless and horrifying sequence of wars, conflicts, genocides and ‘ethnic cleansings’ which have caused unspeakable suffering: millions and millions of victims, families and countries destroyed, an ocean of refugees, misery, hunger, disease, underdevelopment and the loss of immense resources…

“To the young people who, unfortunately, have known the tragic experience of war and who harbor sentiments of hatred and resentment I address this plea: make every effort to rediscover the path of reconciliation and forgiveness. It is a difficult path, but it is the only one which will enable you to look to the future with hope for yourselves, your children, your countries and all humanity.”

This consistent call to forgiveness that the pope has given us has taken many forms. “Forgive debts,” he has challenged governments, in many cases with surprisingly successful results. “Forgive your persecutors,” he has gently encouraged the many millions of Christians who live under harsh, even deadly, circumstances in Asia, Africa, and elsewhere where oppression, violence, and death coil around them. “Forgive one another,” has been Pope John Paul’s plea to Catholics and Orthodox. His hope is that the wellspring of mutual forgiveness will break forth in a fountain of genuine, permanent reconciliation for the two Churches.

For years now, the pope has been a modern-day John the Baptist, calling on each of us to prepare the way of the Lord, to make straight His path. As we stand in the doorway of the new millennium, with a renewed mission of evangelization before us, let’s take to heart the Holy Father’s exhortation to forgive others and to seek forgiveness for sins we’ve committed against them.

To help crystallize the reality of what it means to forgive, let me share with you a true story of a young woman’s forgiveness and loving courage in the face of a personal catastrophe. It has been an object of reflection for me since I first read it. This letter she wrote, as she walked with Christ along that lonely road to Calvary, summarizes what the pope has been saying about the urgent need for us to forgive others, of the immense power of forgiveness.

Her name is Sister Lucy Vertrusc, a young nun from the former Yugoslavia. Her words, written just a few years ago during the war there between the Serbians and Bosnians, have taught me a lot about what it means to forgive the way Christ does. This is an excerpt from a letter she wrote to her superior. I think it is worth meditating upon as we search the dark corners of our own hearts where anger and jealousies and grudges make their nests. Her story can help us see the power of love.

(to be continued)

 

[gardenswithkids]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I had two scenarios given to me that I would like some insight on. The woman who posed these to me is not Catholic, and is Pro-Choice…I feel a trap, but know better than to fall for it.

1. How about the 11 year old girl who didn’t have a choice and was raped and made pregnant by her dad or uncle? What now? Did she have the choice to abstain? No, but he did…

In the first situation, an abortion would cover up evidence of a crime. Incest and rape of an 11 child are against the law; crime should be prosecuted rather than covered-up. I can imagine an abused child would get significant pressure from the perpetrator to have an abortion to hide his crime. If people asked questions about the pregnancy of an 11 yo girl who was the victum of rape and incest, and she gave honest answers, the rapist could go to jail. That’s where he belongs so he can’t continue to victimize her and possible other girls. Abortion simply allows the crime to continue unnoticed.

BTW, many pro-lifers raise questions about Planned Parenthood’s and other abortion providers seeming co-operation with crimes by failing to report such things as statutory rape when they perform abortions on girls below the age of consent.

 

[4EverHis]

(part 2)

I am Lucy, one of the young nuns raped by the Serbian soldiers. I am writing to you, Mother, after what happened to my sisters Tatiana, Sandria, and me.

Allow me not to go into the details of the act. There are some experiences in life so atrocious that you cannot tell them to anyone but God, in whose service I had consecrated my life nearly a year ago. My drama is not so much the humiliation that I suffered as a woman, nor the incurable offense committed against my vocation as a religious, but the difficulty of having to incorporate into my faith an event that certainly forms part of the mysterious will of Him whom I have always considered my Divine Spouse.
“Only a few days before, I had read Dialogues of Carmelites and spontaneously I asked Our Lord to grant me the grace of joining the ranks of those who died a martyr for Him. God took me at my word, but in such a horrid way! Now I find myself lost in the anguish of internal darkness. He has destroyed the plans of my life, which I considered definitive and uplifting for me, and He has set me all of a sudden in this new design of His that I feel incapable of grasping. . . .

“It was already daytime when I awoke and my first thought was the agony of Christ in the Garden. Inside of me a terrible battle unleashed. I asked myself why God had permitted me to be rent, destroyed precisely in what had been the meaning of my life; but also I asked myself to what new vocation He was calling me.

“I strained to get up, and helped by Sister Josefina, I managed to straighten myself out. Then the sound of the bell of the Augustinian convent, which was right next to ours, reached my ears. It was time for nine o’clock matins. I made the sign of the cross and began reciting in my head the liturgical hymn: At this hour upon Golgotha’s heights, / Christ, the true Paschal Lamb, / paid the price of our salvation.

“What is my suffering, Mother, and the offense I received compared to the suffering and the offense of the One for whom I had a thousand times sworn to give my life? I spoke these words slowly, very slowly: ‘May your will be done, above all now that I have no where to go and that I can only be sure of one thing: You are with me.’ Mother, I am writing not in search of consolation, but so that you can help me give thanks to God for having associated me with the thousands of my fellow compatriots whose honor has been violated, and who are compelled to accept a maternity not wanted. My humiliation is added to theirs, and since I have nothing else to offer in expiation for the sin committed by those unnamed violators and for the reconciliation of the two embittered peoples, I accept this dishonor that I suffered and I entrust it to the mercy of God.

Do not be surprised, Mother, when I ask you to share with me my ‘thank you’ that can seem absurd. In these last months I have been crying a sea of tears for my two brothers who were assassinated by the same aggressors who go around terrorizing our towns, and I was thinking that it was not possible for me to suffer anything worse, so far from my imagination had been what was about to take place.

“Every day hundreds of hungering creatures use to knock at the doors of our convent, shivering from the cold, with despair in their eyes. Some weeks ago, a young boy about eighteen years old said to me: ‘How lucky you are to have chosen a refuge where no evil can catch you.’ The boy carried in his hands a rosary of praises for the Prophet [Muhammad]. Then he added: You will never know what it means to be dishonored.
I pondered his words at length and convinced myself that there had been a hidden element to the sufferings of my people that had escaped me as I was almost ashamed to be so excluded. Now I am one of them, one of the many unknown women of my people, whose bodies have been devastated and hearts seared. The Lord has admitted me into his mystery of shame. What is more, for me, a religious, He has accorded me the privilege of being acquainted with evil in the depths of its diabolical force.

“I know that from now on the words of encouragement and consolation that I can offer from my poor heart will be all the more credible, because my story is their story, and my resignation, sustained in faith, at least a reference, if not example for their moral and emotional responses. All it takes is a sign, a little voice, a fraternal gesture to set in motion the hopes of so many undiscovered creatures.

“God has chosen me — may He forgive my presumption — to guide the most humble of my people towards the dawn of redemption and freedom. They can no longer doubt the sincerity of my words, because I come, as they do, from the outskirts of revilement and profanation…

“That night, in which I was terrorized by the Serbs for hours and hours, I repeated to myself these verses, which I felt as balm for my soul, nearly mad with despair. And now, with everything having passed and looking back, I get the impression of having been made to swallow a terrible pill.

Everything has passed, Mother, but everything begins. In your telephone call, after your words of encouragement, for which I am grateful with all my life, you posed me a very direct question: What will you do with the life that has been forced into your womb? I heard your voice tremble as you asked me the question, a question I felt needed no immediate response; not because I had not yet considered the road I would have to follow, but so as not to disturb the plans you would eventually have to unveil before me. I had already decided.

“I will be a mother. The child will be mine and no one else’s. I know that I could entrust him to other people, but he — though I neither asked for him nor expected him — he has a right to my love as his mother. A plant should never be torn from its roots. The grain of wheat fallen in the flu-row has to grow there, where the mysterious, though iniquitous sower threw it.

“I will fulfill my religious vocation in another way. I will ask nothing of my congregation, which has already given me everything. I am very grateful for the fraternal solidarity of the Sisters, who in these times have treated me with the utmost delicacy and kindness, especially for never having asked any uncareful questions.

“I will go with my child. I do not know where but God, who broke all of a sudden my greatest joy, will indicate the path I must trod in order to do his will. I will be poor again, I will return to the old aprons and the wooden shoes that the women in the country use for working, and I will accompany my mother into the forest to collect the resin from the slits in the trees…

“Someone has to begin to break the chain of hatred that has always destroyed our countries. And so, I will teach my child only one thing: love. This child, born of violence, will be a witness along with me that the only greatness that gives honor to a human being is forgiveness.”

 

[Bengoshi]

Note the story of St. Gianna Molla. St. Gianna post-poned cancer treatment because of pregnancy and she later died. Post-poning treatment at the risk of her own life that demonstrated HEROIC virtue that went above and beyond what is neccesary.

All life has value–both mother and child.

There is a thin life separating heroism from carelessness…

 

[st_lucy]

There is a thin life separating heroism from carelessness…

Are you saying that St Gianna was careless? You know her daughter is alive today and living a wonderful and beautiful Christian life. How is that careless?

 

[Bluegoat]

Grace and Peace be with all of you.

I believe it is vitally important to support a woman who is pregnant by rape or incest, to see that she gets counseling if needed and friendship, also financial support and medical attention. It is not enough to just say “abortion is wrong.” A woman who has been through that trauma needs help, as well as does her unborn baby. She will also need support whether she decides to keep the baby or to give the child up for adoption. It is also most important that she not be made to feel that she has done anything wrong or made to feel embarrassed. Any shame or embarrassment belongs to the man who raped her. Women in these situations may feel very much alone. As part of the Body of Christ we must reach out to these women and their children.

I was a victim of rape twice, both times by a stranger who invaded my home. The rapes did not result in pregnancy, but if they had, I would have faced a great deal of trauma and would have needed support. My family (non-Catholics) would never have understood and would most likely have counseled my getting an abortion.

I do feel that in general, while well-intentioned, many pro-life people simply do not know, or are ill-equipped to handle, the complex emotions and the hardships that go along with any unexpected pregnancy, especially that which is a result of rape or incest. I would plead with all of us to consider and respect the woman’s feelings. Someone who is pregnant by an act of violence is not likely to be delighted that she is going to have a baby. Even married women in a loving relationship may feel ambivalent about pregnancy, and they should not be made to feel like bad people because of this.

Compassion, not judgment, please.

You know, one thing that I think is often an emotional factor for women in this situation, but also many other women who have pregnancies but might want to consider adoption, is that throughout the pregnancy people assume they will be keeping the baby and want it.

For teen moms, I think this is less commonly a problem - often people are fairly understanding and supportive, and not surprised, when a teen mom plans to have her baby adopted.

But an older professional woman, or someone who has been raped, or even a mom with kids and a family - what if those women can’t for some reason care for another child? Not only will they feel the need to explain the whole situation, which may be very private, to friends, colleagues, and nosy relatives, they may very well face very harsh judgments about the decision.

I think that can be one of the most appealing things for some women about abortion - it is private.

I don’t think that justifies abortion. But I do think it is a real issue and also can result in a lot of emotional trauma for the people involved, and contribute to bad decision making.

 

[Bengoshi]

Are you saying that St Gianna was careless? You know her daughter is alive today and living a wonderful and beautiful Christian life. How is that careless?

I didn’t mean to say that she was careless. It was a general statement for pregnant women to be careful in their zeal to keep their baby alive, lest as one poster posited, that women be considered “expendable containers for the next generation.”

 

[Garland]

st Lucy, may I please use you quote on humility at the end of your post, it is really good and I would like to quote you on another thread. Blessings. Garland

 

[st_lucy]

st Lucy, may I please use you quote on humility at the end of your post, it is really good and I would like to quote you on another thread. Blessings. Garland

Hi Garland, I cannot take credit for the quote it is by St Vincent de Paul.

 

[ryecroft]

That is a different topic but I’d like to address your post briefly. To my understanding of Catholic moral teachings, your friend’s decision to have a hysterectomy due to uterine cancer was a morally acceptable choice.

Sad situation indeed. Surgery to remove a diseased uterus in order to save the woman’s live is not a direct assault upon the child with the intention of killing the child. Abortion is. Your friend’s surgery had the unintended secondary effect of the death of her unborn child, but that was not the goal. Your friend and the surgeon were not directly and intentionally killing the child in her diseased womb.

Note the story of St. Gianna Molla. St. Gianna post-poned cancer treatment because of pregnancy and she later died. Post-poning treatment at the risk of her own life that demonstrated HEROIC virtue that went above and beyond what is neccesary.

All life has value–both mother and child.

Note the story of St. Gianna Molla. St. Gianna post-poned cancer treatment because of pregnancy and she later died. Post-poning treatment at the risk of her own life that demonstrated HEROIC virtue that went above and beyond what is neccesary.

O.K., I agree that all life has value - both mother and child -

I have read quite a bit about St. Gianna Molla but I Never read that she had cancer. I have had a few people mention this to me, can you please tell me where you got this information? This is what I have read happenned: Please correct me if someone can show some information to the contrary. Perhaps some people think that the tumor she had was malignant - everything I’ve read said it was benign - meaning NOT cancerous. I’m not asking this to be mean or anything, just it seems that many seem to believe the same as this poster, that St. Gianna had cancer and refused treatment and that’s why she died. I can’t find anything saying she had cancer - this in no way means that I don’t believe she was a wonderful Christ like example. This is what I’ve read happened - again, please correct me if I"m incorrect.

St. Gianna had a couple of miscarriages after her 3rd child was born - she finally got pregnant again in 1961 I believe and the found she had a BENIGN fibroid ( a NON cancerous tumor) - (some people have said to me that she had cancer but was pregnant, refused treatment until after the delivery but died anyway - I can’t find this anywhere)- although there was risk to the pregnancy she went ahead and had the uterine tumor removed and luckily they both were fine (I believe had she not had the surgery, the tumor might have hurt the chances for this pregnancy to be succesful) - the pregnancy continued for the next 7 months, fairly normally, but a few days prior to the delivery, she realized that she had a bad infection - she did say that if there was a choice between her and the child to choose the child - the child was delivered just fine but the infection was at this point septic (there was no coice about the delivery, she was so far along that it was time to deliver - and there was NO medication that she could have taken during the few days she knew about the infection that would have hurt the pregnancy - they didn’t have medications like gentamyacin in the early 60’s that would have helped the sepsis) - when she was dying I’ve read that she did say “I love you Jesus”.

I’ve also read some of what she wrote to her husband prior to marriage and I’ve never, ever heard another Catholic or even Christan family. She wrote this:“With God’s help and blessing, we will do all we can to make our new family a little cenacle where Jesus will reign over all our affections, desires and actions. … We will be working with God in His creation; in this way we can give Him children who will love Him and serve Him”.

Wow - that’s pretty deep _ I don’t know of many people that would say something like that - she truely was living her faith.

God Bless -
Rye AKA Annie

p.s. let me note one other thing - in various readings I’m going back over, I keep seeing that she had ovarian cysts and a fibroma which was not malignant, but on other sites, I see that the reason of her death had nothing to do with any cancer yet rather had to do with an infection - the sepsis. I know it doesn’t really matter that much, but I just find it odd that there seem to be two completely different versions of what her medical diagnosis was. One place like Priests for LIfe’s version of her death seems to push on her having had cancerous tumors, yet at other sites I see it made known she had a benign tumor and died of an infection - nothing having to do with any kind of cancer. If someone was wondering some of the places I got the information about her just having died of an infection, I got it from the Vatican Web site :
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20040516_beretta-molla_en.html
which I have to say, I would take their word over the other source. Also at the Women for Faith and Family’s site, I found this :
“Early in the pregnancy it was discovered that Gianna had a fibroma, a benign tumor, on her uterine wall. Surgery that would involve aborting the baby was suggested, but the Mollas instantly and firmly rejected this idea, and chose surgery that would remove only the tumor…”

God Bless
Annie

 

[gardenswithkids]

…O.K., I agree that all life has value - both mother and child -

I have read quite a bit about St. Gianna Molla but I Never read that she had cancer. I have had a few people mention this to me, can you please tell me where you got this information? This is what I have read happenned: Please correct me if someone can show some information to the contrary. Perhaps some people think that the tumor she had was malignant - everything I’ve read said it was benign - meaning NOT cancerous. vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20040516_beretta-molla_en.html
which I have to say, I would take their word over the other source. Also at the Women for Faith and Family’s site, I found this :
“Early in the pregnancy it was discovered that Gianna had a fibroma, a benign tumor, on her uterine wall. Surgery that would involve aborting the baby was suggested, but the Mollas instantly and firmly rejected this idea, and chose surgery that would remove only the tumor…”

God Bless
Annie

Hi Annie, I had to do some more checking. You’re right that sources say St. Gianna had a fibroma tumor. According to what I read, they are usually benign, but when there is doubt if fibromas are cancer-related, doctors remove them. Keep in mind that St. Gianna died over forty years ago. They didn’t have all the medical technology and scanning that we have today. According to one report on her daughter, doctors knew she had a large tumor in her uterus and the surgical procedures at the time called for her to have her entire uterus removed. cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=16502 (I believe back then they mostly determined if a tumor was cancerous or not following it’s removal.) And yes, St. Gianna died from infection following the surgery done after the birth of her child. Again, medicine has advanced since then.

I realize it is a little off topic. St. Gianna’s child was conceived in love. I brought up St. Gianna because a previous poster wrote something about a friend who required a hysterectomy when pregnant and that story reminded me of St. Gianna. The Church makes a moral distinction between a hysterectomy that’s done the intention of healing an illness (even if done on a woman who is pregnant) from an abortion that’s done with the intention of killing an unborn child.

 

[Garland]

st. Lucy, Thank you for your response. Isn`t it wonderful that we have such a group of extrodinary people to draw wisdom from, you included. I saw the quote on you post, so, without you I would not have known about it. Thanks again, and thanks, St. Vincent de Paul. Blessings Garland

 

[ryecroft]

Hi Annie, I had to do some more checking. You’re right that sources say St. Gianna had a fibroma tumor. According to what I read, they are usually benign, but when there is doubt if fibromas are cancer-related, doctors remove them. Keep in mind that St. Gianna died over forty years ago. They didn’t have all the medical technology and scanning that we have today. According to one report on her daughter, doctors knew she had a large tumor in her uterus and the surgical procedures at the time called for her to have her entire uterus removed. cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=16502 (I believe back then they mostly determined if a tumor was cancerous or not following it’s removal.) And yes, St. Gianna died from infection following the surgery done after the birth of her child. Again, medicine has advanced since then.

I realize it is a little off topic. St. Gianna’s child was conceived in love. I brought up St. Gianna because a previous poster wrote something about a friend who required a hysterectomy when pregnant and that story reminded me of St. Gianna. The Church makes a moral distinction between a hysterectomy that’s done the intention of healing an illness (even if done on a woman who is pregnant) from an abortion that’s done with the intention of killing an unborn child.

I really appreciate you looing as well - I was in no way trying to say she was in any way less of a Saint because she didn’t have cancer, but it does seem that there is a kind of mythology (for want of a better word) rising around her. I think I may begin a seperate thread about this because on certain sites, such as the Priests for life site, they are saying that she had cancer- and I have heard so many people say that she had cancer but when I check with the vatican’s site, which I would have to go with as know better than pretty much any other source, they say that the tumor was benign. IREgarless, you’re right, it was the 60’s and we have come a lot farther with meds since then. She was still an almost unbelievable Christian - even for her time. I amost wish I had the fiath the have thought about marriage the way she did - I don’t know of anyone today who I could see sying they wanted their marriage and family to be like the marriage of the Holy Family. Her life does still amaze me, though!.

God Bless-
Rye - Annie