Abortionist Killers?

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Montie_Claunch

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I was talking with a freind and we were talking and it came up that a person had killed at an abortion clinic (and I am asuming the “doctor” there too) and I have a question. Would that have been a sin or would it have been alright scince the “Doctor” was killing a bunch of innocent people and actually saved people? Would that have been right or wrong? Thanks and God bless.
 
Wrong.
  1. Perhaps his intent was to save the unborn. Still, the end does not justify the means.
  2. Perhaps he meant it as retribution. This is not our place, it is God’s.
  3. It is simply counter to the overall pro-life argument. Respect life in all its forms, even the scum-of-the-earth “doctors” who really ought to know better.
 
It is as right as the United States Government’s unjust war in Iraq.
 
Montie Claunch:
I was talking with a freind and we were talking and it came up that a person had killed at an abortion clinic (and I am asuming the “doctor” there too) and I have a question. Would that have been a sin or would it have been alright scince the “Doctor” was killing a bunch of innocent people and actually saved people? Would that have been right or wrong? Thanks and God bless.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.
 
It could only be right in very rare circumstances. If the person happened to somehow be in the operating room when the abortion was imminent and the attack was begun and there was no other way to defend the child, then it could be used if necessary for the immediate defense of the innocent. But one should not seek trouble, and there is no universal obligation to stop all evil everywhere, even if we suspect it is taking place.

But I’ve often wondered what the government and Church would say if someone did this:

Kidnap a woman going to get an abortion, hold her until she has the baby, and then let them go…would anyone approve? Im not sure what to think about it.
 
If killing is wrong, then to kill the abortion doctor is wrong.

If killing is not wrong, then why would one be motivated to kill an abortion doctor?

Besides, how can you justify killing the doctor without killing the woman too?

Oh, perhaps we let the mother go because she is “confused” but kill the doctor because of what, the numbers? Do we count this many baby lives can be traded for that many adult lives? If a mother has two abortions we excommunicate, but since the doctor is involved in more we kill? There really isn’t anywhere to draw the line except at not killing.

As far as I’m concerned, the woman and the doctor are the ones who need prayers. The baby’s soul is not at issue here, as it would be if this were a person who has lived long enough to have sinned. I think the greatest evil is the damage it does to the survivors who don’t understand how precious life is.

Alan
 
Montie Claunch:
I was talking with a freind and we were talking and it came up that a person had killed at an abortion clinic (and I am asuming the “doctor” there too) and I have a question. Would that have been a sin or would it have been alright scince the “Doctor” was killing a bunch of innocent people and actually saved people? Would that have been right or wrong? Thanks and God bless.
This has always bothered me. Killing in defense of another is perfectly moral.

If you were walking down the street and saw a man killing a newborn you would be justified in shooting him to save the newborn.

It logically follows that it’s moral to shoot abortion doctors when they are performing abortions.

At the same time, I would never do it. Few would.
 
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svoboda:
This has always bothered me. Killing in defense of another is perfectly moral.

If you were walking down the street and saw a man killing a newborn you would be justified in shooting him to save the newborn.

It logically follows that it’s moral to shoot abortion doctors when they are performing abortions.

At the same time, I would never do it. Few would.
Few ever, if any, have gotten shot in the act. All of the ones I can think of have been in their homes, in the parking lot, etc. Self defense or defense of another would be a different thing.
 
The only time killing can be ok, as far as I know, is if it is directly required to save the life of another and it is the only way (and of course the intent of the action must be life saving not life destroying). For example if someone is shooting up a crowd then a policeman can shoot the shooter to save the lives of those in the crowd. The policeman will have to act fast and not ‘take it easy’ as he has a responsibility to protect those innocent lives. If his shot kills the shooter the policeman did not do the wrong thing.

The difference between this case and killing an abortionist is that the abortionist is not directly putting someone’s life at risk. For all we know (even though this is unlikely), that abortionist may have performed his last abortion. It is not up to us to judge him saying he might do it again so we must kill him. In an ideal world, abortion would be illegal and so if you saw an abortionist you could call the police to arrest him so he would not be able to perform any more abortions.

Even if you caught an abortionist in the very act, about to kill a child, it wouldn’t be right to just kill him as there would be other ways of stopping him besides killing. Smash up his equipment if you have to, just don’t take a human life.
 
Chris Jacobsen:
It is as right as the United States Government’s unjust war in Iraq.
It would be a stretch but you can make an argument for a just war theory for abortion clinics.
 
No, it wouldn’t really work. The closest I could think of is when an unborn child dies as an unintended side effect of an operation which is to save the life of the mother. But this isn’t really abortion and wouldn’t be done in an abortion clinic.

Wars are much different, a just war seeks to redress a great evil. Pregnancy is not evil.

Anyway, this thread isn’t about war and we shouldn’t egg on the guy who brought it up. Personally I don’t know enough to know whether the war in Iraq is just or not, and I have no idea how he knows enough to be able to fig it out. Most likely its just his opinion.
 
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Flopfoot:
No, it wouldn’t really work. The closest I could think of is when an unborn child dies as an unintended side effect of an operation which is to save the life of the mother. But this isn’t really abortion and wouldn’t be done in an abortion clinic.

Wars are much different, a just war seeks to redress a great evil. Pregnancy is not evil.

Anyway, this thread isn’t about war and we shouldn’t egg on the guy who brought it up. Personally I don’t know enough to know whether the war in Iraq is just or not, and I have no idea how he knows enough to be able to fig it out. Most likely its just his opinion.
But what about the other way around? Abortion is a great evil. If it is justified to go to war to stop genocide in another country, would it be justified to go to “war” against the abortion clinic?
 
As far as I’m concerned, Catholics “abort” each other spiritually all the time. Any time one Catholic says to another, “we don’t have room at our school for your children,” when the children are innocent, we have severed a child from our community.

This is why I’m not as impressed as I used to be with the focus on abortion so greatly that we try to fix this problem with guns – that is, with the force of law. This is a worldly solution to a problem which has spiritual and worldly ramifications.

To me, we do not do nearly enough at guiding Catholics in transforming their hearts and minds to Christ. We are no different, substantially, than any other group who goes to lobby.

At one pro-life demonstration, the demonstrators were so anti-Catholic and vitriolic that one could see satan had just as much of a hand in the demonstration as God.

I simply do not believe that as long as we are dead set against abortion that in itself is going to do us any spiritual good. To me the problem won’t be solved unless we start honestly converting our OWN YOUTH for example. Many Catholics are openly silent on the issue but vote for pro-choice candidates – and some because they are pro-choice. Why? Because so many Catholics have “opted out” of pregnancy in this way they do not wish to upset the apple cart.

Abortion would not be a problem if promiscuity wasn’t. Once it’s gotten to the point of abortion there are serious things wrong with the mind of the “parents” and IMO this is what we need to focus.

How? The Catholic Church has great resources and is the world’s expert at mysticism, but this information has been hidden. Now that we have the Internet and other ways to communicate much more freely, people can actually share real-time stories of mysticism and what has been hidden can now come out. Faith is our most powerful weapon against abortion, and personally I think too much focus on the legal aspects and in prevention of abortion has detracted us from the goal of raising our children right so they don’t need abortions.

Tiller the Killer lives about three miles from my house. He has federal, state, and local laws on his side now – in the solidly “red” state of Kansas. He is not afraid of any march, prayer vigil, protest, Lambs of Christ during the summer of mercy, etc. Even Rich Mullins got himself arrested and thrown into jail here, and he has been shot at. What would scare him? What about if we refocused some of our effort to chastity and Catholic girls started having 50% fewer abortions? That would scare him because he can buy his way into performing abortions on those who want them, but he is powerless over chastity.

For those who tell me I’m off my rocker saying we should promote chastity because the abortion is such a big problem we are just spitting into the wind as it were, then I say the same argument is used in every aspect the Church is in, as satan’s message to give up. We might just as well hang up the entire illusion that we care about behavior we can’t directly control and prevent with guns.

Let me see if I can word it another way for the main purpose of trying to strike so depth into what I’m saying. This may not be theologically correct, but consider this… trying to stop abortion without addressing chastity is the same mentality as those who give away condoms as “safety” because kids are going to do it. If abortion is latent birth control, then the sin we have to address is birth control and promiscuity, not killing. I doubt anybody hops into bed saying, “let’s make a baby so we can kill it.” So even though they are killilng the baby, if in their hearts it is just latent birth control, then that is the spiritual obstacle we must overcome before we get any improvement.

Let me assure you from my involvement in Kansas politics, legal solutions are not forthcoming any time soon, so IMO the Catholics have a chance to take the lead.

Moreover, at that last anti-Catholic pro-life demonstration I saw at Wichita State University, I realized pro-life has brought people together to protest, supposedly united against abortion, and the protesters themselves despise each others’ religious beliefs. How do I know that the Holy SPirit isn’t working through this to promote Christian unity? I don’t know, but somehow I doubt this was all His idea and His best way to go about it. It is very true that many pro-life demonstrators are very hateful in their heart, and that’s one of the biggest stings – we feed the weed that is “pro-lifers don’t care about living children.” It may be false, but we’re feeding it. When Christians stand above non-Christians at the way they treat other people in day-to-day life, then the world will stand up and take notice of the City on the Hill.

Alan
 
[CCC 1756](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1756.htm’)😉 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

The teaching of the Church. 'Nuff said.
 
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BlindSheep:
But what about the other way around? Abortion is a great evil. If it is justified to go to war to stop genocide in another country, would it be justified to go to “war” against the abortion clinic?
As an individual without the authority of legitimate government behind you, you do not have the authority or right to declare war on anyone. It is the reponsibilty of Government to declare war. Now if you were the president of the United States…
 
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