About eternity and why not a chance of change?

[MaximilianK]

I have a lot of question about the eternal hell, but one is : why does our choice become irrevocable after death, how a soul for all eternity want sin and suffering? Or why after a time in Hell, the souls don’t change minds, like Origen or Clement of Alexandria suggest? Only a soul in Hell for eternity make a dramatic existence…

“If a poor and sinfullsoul want , love and pray for salvation of all, does God find a way to do this?” Metr. Kallistos Ware

 

[Frankie65]

I suppose we are given every chance to know Christ and repent and get our act together before it is too late. After that, it is too late. No one ‘chooses’ an eternity in a 700 degree furnace but many people actually do choose that by their rejection of the faith which could just as easily mean a Catholic life of lukewarmness. Also I have read that in Hell every instant is like the first instant, so each ‘moment’ of your existence in Hell in eternity is like waking up and thinking, I am in Hell. A really reputable priest said that some years ago.

 

[Wesrock]

From a Thomist perspective, an intellect apart from its body and with no other interference (from, say, God) naturally only has the knowledge it has. It has no senses. There are no cognitive processes anymore. There’s no more thinking in a discursive manner. It simply is. And once separated from the body it orient its will based on that knowledge. There’s no animal appetites pulling it in different directions. There’s no process by which to reconsider. Whereas before it was moldable clay while being worked, it sets.

Now, Christians also believe in the resurrection of the dead, of both the saved and reprobate alike. Why don’t we change minds after the resurrection, then? Whereas the first answer above Thomists believe is explainable by natural reason alone, we have to understand the resurrection of the dead is an article of faith, of divine revelation. We could not know the resurrection would happen without it having been revealed to us that it would. So the answer Thomists have for why we don’t change our minds after the resurrection is theological, combining what we know is doctrine and the end result with what we know from reason.

To Thomists, the resurrected bodies of the saved will be made to fit the orientation of the will for those saved. So our bodies will no longer pull us in the direction of sin. We must also remember that the saved will have the beatific vision, which is the perfect and all-satisfying good that God made us for. We will truly have all we want and need in that. There is no competing good that, having obtained the beatific vision, which will appear better.

As for the damned, we must rember out teaching on grace and faith and works. Nobody can come to faith or good works unless first moved to do so by God with his grace. Left to our own volition alone, we can never come to God. The reprobate have rejected God, and God after death never sends the reprobate grace which is necessary for conversion. They continue according to their wills alone, their agency alone, apart from grace, which is what they chose in life, and so remain attached to earthly things other than God and continue their rejection.

 

[Dan_Defender]

an intellect apart from its body and with no other interference (from, say, God) naturally only has the knowledge it has. It has no senses. There are no cognitive processes anymore. There’s no more thinking in a discursive manner. It simply is.

This s a great concept from St Thomas Aquinas, it makes a lot of sense. I was not aware of it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Justin_Mary]

why does our choice become irrevocable after death, how a soul for all eternity want sin and suffering? Or why after a time in Hell, the souls don’t change minds, like Origen or Clement of Alexandria suggest?

My understanding is that they get lost in their conceit… can’t determine what truth is so they continue to make the wrong decisions. They’re not choosing evil. They’re choosing what makes them “happy.” What makes them happy is their own selfish desires.

When they get to the other side they won’t be satisfied even a little, like they may be in this life. But instead of seeing that the choice they’re making is fundamentally wrong they continue to make the same decision again & again.

Some of us work day & night for things of this world, never thinking of our soul & the things above. But the only way to be in heaven is to be like God. Humble, meek, self-giving, compassionate, kind. No envy, no lust, no greed.

 

[MaximilianK]

The reprobate have rejected God, and God after death never sends the reprobate grace which is necessary for conversion. They continue according to their wills alone, their agency alone, apart from grace, which is what they chose in life, and so remain attached to earthly things other than God and continue their rejection.

This isn’t the patristic ideea, only the thomistic, because look for what Saint John of Damascus said: “God forever supplies good things even to the devil, but he does not want to receive it.” (“ Against the Manicheans” , PG 94:1569B)

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

If a poor and sinfullsoul want , love and pray for salvation of all, does God find a way to do this?” Metr. Kallistos Ware

Okay.
A lot of people have this notion that the souls in Hell are languishing and pining to be united with God. And God is just being a big meanie and saying “No”.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

People in Hell don’t want God.
I don’t understand it either.
But they don’t want God.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

The reprobate have rejected God, and God after death never sends the reprobate grace which is necessary for conversion. They continue according to their wills alone, their agency alone, apart from grace, which is what they chose in life, and so remain attached to earthly things other than God and continue their rejection.

This isn’t the patristic ideea, only the thomistic, because look for what Saint John of Damascus said: “God forever supplies good things even to the devil, but he does not want to receive it.” (“ Against the Manicheans” , PG 94:1569B)

On the contrary, St. John of Damascus writes:

“… after death, there is no means for repentance, not because God does not accept repentance – He cannot deny Himself nor lose His compassion – but the soul does not change anymore … people after death are unchangeable, so that on the one hand the righteous desire God and always have Him to rejoice in, while sinners desire sin though they do not have the material means to sin … they are punished without any consolation. For what is hell but the deprivation of that which is exceedingly desired by someone? Therefore, according to the analogy of desire, whoever desires God rejoices and whoever desires sin is punished.” (“ Against the Manicheans” , PG 94)

I never said God does not provide “good things.” God continues to give them their existence and agency and allows them to will the objects of their will. But he does not send the grace which is necessary to convert. The Orthodox, like Catholics, also acknowledge that God is first and foremost the mover of a person towards conversion.

And all this without needing to quote Church Fathers prior to St. John Damascene.

 

[STT]

Could you please quote from Bible about those who don’t repent go to Hell permanently?

 

[MaximilianK]

Saint John said right that: God give also grace necessary fi concert, but they don’t want to!

 

[Wesrock]

Saint John said right that: God give also grace necessary fi concert, but they don’t want to!

Can you quote please? I can’t find the full text. If you have a link to the full text, that would be appreciated.

 

[Wozza]

Some of us work day & night for things of this world, never thinking of our soul & the things above.

If I truly believed, if I was absolutely certain that God existed and there was a heaven for those who accepted Him and lived a good life and a hell for those who didn’t, then there would be some obvious changes.

One, I would not have married. In the first instance to avoid the sins of the flesh and secondly because I could not bare to love someone who might find themselves in an eternal hell. Likewise with children. I could not bring a child into the world not knowing if she was heaven bound or doomed to hell.

I would give up literally everything I had to help the poor. And I would spend my entire life trying to help as many people as I possibly could. I would literally give my life to God for every second of every day of every year.

It completely baffles me why hardly no-one does. What conclusion do you think that I could draw from this?

 

[Justin_Mary]

then there would be some obvious changes.

One, I would not have married. In the first instance to avoid the sins of the flesh and secondly because I could not bare to love someone who might find themselves in an eternal hell. Likewise with children. I could not bring a child into the world not knowing if she was heaven bound or doomed to hell.

That’s one approach. Others see marriage as a vocation. As God’s plan for them. Difference between an adult & a child is that one takes on the responsibility for the other. We take the responsibility to feed them, educate them, provide for them, etc…

I would literally give my life to God for every second of every day of every year.

Again, no reason you can not do these for the ones God gave you to do them for.

It completely baffles me why hardly no-one does. What conclusion do you think that I could draw from this?

I couldn’t tell you. I believe a great many do. The magisterium, priests, religious, hermits, etc…

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

then there would be some obvious changes.

One, I would not have married. In the first instance to avoid the sins of the flesh and secondly because I could not bare to love someone who might find themselves in an eternal hell. Likewise with children. I could not bring a child into the world not knowing if she was heaven bound or doomed to hell.

That’s one approach. Others see marriage as a vocation. As God’s plan for them. Difference between an adult & a child is that one takes on the responsibility for the other. We take the responsibility to feed them, educate them, provide for them, etc…

I would literally give my life to God for every second of every day of every year.

Again, no reason you can not do these for the ones God gave you to do them for.

It completely baffles me why hardly no-one does. What conclusion do you think that I could draw from this?

I couldn’t tell you. I believe a great many do. The magisterium, priests, religious, hermits, etc…

But if I asked you if your loved ones were going to end up in hell, the only honest answer would be: I hope not.

If I though that my children had the tiniest chance of it happening, I would literally go mad. Every waking second of my life I would spend worrying about it. I wouldn’t be able to function.

If there was a chance that one of my kids might die because of an ilness then I would do anything in my power to prevent it. I would do anything it took.

Now consider that your child might spend eternity in hell. What wouldn’t you do to prevent it? Just have a few quiet words about morality and evil? And then off to work and forget about it? Make arrangements for the holiday? Book the plumber to fix that leaky tap? Fix dinner?

Imagine if there was a shooting at your child’s school. And one person had been injured. What would go through your mind at that moment? How many speed limits would you break getting to the school? To make sure she was OK.

Knowing that there was even a slight chance that she could have been hurt would galvanise you into action. So what do people do when there’s a chance their child might spend eternity in hell?

It is inconceivable to me that people who say that they might go to hell or that their loved ones might (and that, let’s face it, is the only way to express it), do not actually believe it. Because they wouldn’t be able to function normally if they did. The terror would overwhelm them.

 

[Justin_Mary]

But if I asked you if your loved ones were going to end up in hell, the only honest answer would be: I hope not.

I’m doing everything I can & trusting the Lord our God they will not.

Because they wouldn’t be able to function normally if they did. The terror would overwhelm them.

I think you have an unhealthy fear about what might happen. It’s beyond our control. Be humble, trust, do what you feel is right, & pray.

Fear is useless. What’s needed is faith.

 

[Wozza]

I think you have an unhealthy fear about what might happen. It’s beyond our control.

I think that you might suggest that God gave us free will so that what happens to us is actually WITHIN out control.

Hypothetical: Someone you know dies in a car crash.

First question: Did he go to hell?

Let’s be honest. You don’t know if he did or didn’t. You don’t know what he did on the weekends. You don’t know that how he lived his life would get him to heaven.

Second question: Based on the fact that you don’t know, can you sleep at night thinking that he might be eternally tormented?

And let’s fine tune the hypothetical. Let the guy in the car crash be your son. Or your husband. Do you brush off the possibility that they are in hell?

 

[Hobgoblin]

I’m sure enough that God is real and Jesus is our savior to commit my life to following him. Does that mean giving everything to the poor and becoming a monk? Truthfully, that scares me because my faith isn’t that strong. I think I’m convinced God is real, but I’m not convinced at all that that’s what he wants from me. If I did that and was wrong I might just end up as a broke dude in a soup kitchen. Which is fine as far as it goes. I might still do good there. But what if that’s not what I’m supposed to do? I can do plenty of good making an impact with regular people that I’m around every day. And if God wants me to sell everything and work with the poor he can lead me that way. Because I want to do what he wants me to out of love.

As far as Hell goes, I’ve gone through periods where I’ve been absolutely petrified of it for myself. And it makes me sick that I worried more about it for me than others. But the bottom line is we can only do what we can do and we have to trust God for the rest. So I try to do the best I can with what I know and hope that’s enough for me when the time comes. And I pray for my loved ones and trust God to work good with them.

If God is real then we should follow him. Part of that is trusting him. That’s maybe the major goal of this life.

 

[Wesrock]

Second question: Based on the fact that you don’t know, can you sleep at night thinking that he might be eternally tormented?

And let’s fine tune the hypothetical. Let the guy in the car crash be your son. Or your husband. Do you brush off the possibility that they are in hell?

One needs to trust in God and that he makes the right, just, merciful, and good choice, and in this life it is always appropriate to pray and hope for his salvation.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Second question: Based on the fact that you don’t know, can you sleep at night thinking that he might be eternally tormented?

And let’s fine tune the hypothetical. Let the guy in the car crash be your son. Or your husband. Do you brush off the possibility that they are in hell?

One needs to trust in God and that he makes the right, just, merciful, and good choice, and in this life it is always appropriate to pray and hope for his salvation.

So you hope that God makes the right choice? Right for you? And your family? So you therefore admit that you have no idea if you (and they) will suffer eternal torment.

Woild you sleep tonight if you didn’t know if your family was going to be taken from you and tortured for a week? Yet you will sleep tonight not knowing if they will suffer eternally.

Do you not see the problem here?

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

Wozza:

Second question: Based on the fact that you don’t know, can you sleep at night thinking that he might be eternally tormented?

And let’s fine tune the hypothetical. Let the guy in the car crash be your son. Or your husband. Do you brush off the possibility that they are in hell?

One needs to trust in God and that he makes the right, just, merciful, and good choice, and in this life it is always appropriate to pray and hope for his salvation.

So you hope that God makes the right choice? Right for you? And your family? So you therefore admit that you have no idea if you (and they) will suffer eternal torment.

No. I hope for their salvation. I know God will make the right and good choice on account of his justness and mercy whatever the outcome will be, whether the loved one is among the saved or reprobate.

Woild you sleep tonight if you didn’t know if your family was going to be taken from you and tortured for a week? Yet you will sleep tonight not knowing if they will suffer eternally.

Do you not see the problem here?

You’re confusing earthly and worldly sins of men with the goodness and justness of God.