About knowing if oneself is in a state of grace

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One time in confession the priest told me if I had committed a sin I would know it. He said I would stop thinking about God, and he may have said some other stuff. Can I go by this. For instance, can I say right now I am in a state of grace because I would know it if I had committed a mortal sin?
 
It is an official dogma of the Catholic Faith that, apart from a special revelation, no one can know with the certainty of faith whether or not he or she is in a state of grace.

It is true, though, that one cannot “accidentally” or “unknowingly” commit mortal sin.
 
You can’t accidently commit a mortal sin. If you commit a mortal sin you will know. If you have doubts on whether or not something you did was a mortal sin, it probably isn’t. If you are not in a state of mortal sin, you are in a state of grace.

God Bless,
Matt
 
you have asked several questions about scrupulosity, the tendency to obsess about whether this or that action is sinful. You have also stated on several threads that you are getting advice of the priest in confession. Confession belongs in the confessional, not on a public forum. The worst thing you can do for your spiritual life is to second-guess the advice you receive from your priest, and ask strangers to advise you. Please go to the same priest all the time for confession if at all possible, and follow his advice. All great spiritual directors will give you this counsel. You will not get any spiritual benefit, and may do damage, by constantly asking questions about your sins on a forum like this. God bless you, you know we are all praying for you.
 
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puzzleannie:
you have asked several questions about scrupulosity, the tendency to obsess about whether this or that action is sinful. You have also stated on several threads that you are getting advice of the priest in confession. Confession belongs in the confessional, not on a public forum. The worst thing you can do for your spiritual life is to second-guess the advice you receive from your priest, and ask strangers to advise you. Please go to the same priest all the time for confession if at all possible, and follow his advice. All great spiritual directors will give you this counsel. You will not get any spiritual benefit, and may do damage, by constantly asking questions about your sins on a forum like this. God bless you, you know we are all praying for you.
What about a priest who tells you that withdrawing during intercourse and using contraceptives is OK and not a mortal sin. My confessor tells me that I am too scrupulos and not to worry, in essence he said what ever my wife and I consent to in the marriage bed is permissible. Should I take his advice and “not worry?” Everything else I have read on this site, including advice from the “ask an apologist” indicates that if I follow what my priest says, I will be in a state of mortal sin. This is killing me! Could I go to Hell if my heart is in the right place, i.e., following the spiritual direction of my priest, but the advice is bad and leading me into a mortal sin??? :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Dude, of course God knows what’s in your heart. Don’t be silly. If you didn’t know you recieved bad advice but thought that you were doing the right thing, our Lord would not count it against you. Does anybody feel that many Catholics, like myself, lack common sense?
 
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St.Eric:
What about a priest who tells you that withdrawing during intercourse and using contraceptives is OK and not a mortal sin. My confessor tells me that I am too scrupulos and not to worry, in essence he said what ever my wife and I consent to in the marriage bed is permissible. Should I take his advice and “not worry?” Everything else I have read on this site, including advice from the “ask an apologist” indicates that if I follow what my priest says, I will be in a state of mortal sin. This is killing me! Could I go to Hell if my heart is in the right place, i.e., following the spiritual direction of my priest, but the advice is bad and leading me into a mortal sin??? :mad: :mad: :mad:
Your situation is different than the OPs.
Puzzleannie was basing her advise to him off of other threads he has posted so she had more history about his situation.

Now, in your situation, always remember that in order to commit mortal sin you must know the gravity of the sin you’re about to commit and you must choose to do it anyway.

Based on your post you still do not know so while you’re figuring it out you are not committing mortal sin while following your priest’s advice.

You have a strong idea he may be leading you astray…that’s the Holy Spirit working within you. Can you sit back and do nothing to follow up on this ‘feeling’ of His? NO. Is it a mortal sin to not learn more? No, but it isn’t wise to disregard all the signs which are pointing you toward the Truth.

Find another priest.
Read the Encyclical Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI.
Read documents re: withdrawal and ABCs from Catholic Answers.
This is how the Lord continues to talk to you and to guide you. It’s not just through one avenue, one source, one priest. Read, read and read some more.
Pray and pray some more.
God will lead you to the Truth and then should you decide to reject that Truth, you will be committing mortal sin - that’s why the priest is telling you you will know when you are committing a mortal sin, knowing is a prerequisite to choosing.
 
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St.Eric:
What about a priest who tells you that withdrawing during intercourse and using contraceptives is OK and not a mortal sin. My confessor tells me that I am too scrupulos and not to worry, in essence he said what ever my wife and I consent to in the marriage bed is permissible. Should I take his advice and “not worry?”
You should reject his advice, as it is contary to Catholic doctrine.
Everything else I have read on this site, including advice from the “ask an apologist” indicates that if I follow what my priest says, I will be in a state of mortal sin.
It is true that it is *grave *sin, but unless all of the conditions of mortal sin are present, then it remains merely material and not formal sin.
This is killing me! Could I go to Hell if my heart is in the right place, i.e., following the spiritual direction of my priest, but the advice is bad and leading me into a mortal sin??? :mad: :mad: :mad:
If the priest advised you that you can kill those you don’t like, would you follow it? Your role in discerning the morality of YOUR human acts is not relieved, simply because a priest presented doctrine incorrectly. You are culpable in committing grave sin, depending upon your full advertence and consent of will, not his.

For a grave sin to meet the conditions of a mortal sin, it must have the proper “form” of mortal sin, with includes gave matter, full knowledge and perfect consent. Lacking any of these three, it is not a formal sin, and can only be called mortal from an objective view, not a subjective view.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
You should reject his advice, as it is contary to Catholic doctrine.

It is true that it is *grave *sin, but unless all of the conditions of mortal sin are present, then it remains merely material and not formal sin.

If the priest advised you that you can kill those you don’t like, would you follow it? Your role in discerning the morality of YOUR human acts is not relieved, simply because a priest presented doctrine incorrectly. You are culpable in committing grave sin, depending upon your full advertence and consent of will, not his.

For a grave sin to meet the conditions of a mortal sin, it must have the proper “form” of mortal sin, with includes gave matter, full knowledge and perfect consent. Lacking any of these three, it is not a formal sin, and can only be called mortal from an objective view, not a subjective view.
I “know” for a fact that murder/rape/adultery, etc. are grave matter. This particular issue that I am struggling with I am still unsure and do not yet have the same sense of “knowing” as in the above mentioned sins. I guess that would tell me that at this point for me the act in the original question would not yet be subjectively mortal? :confused:
 
What about a priest who tells you that withdrawing during intercourse and using contraceptives is OK and not a mortal sin.
John Paul II
“It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Church on a number of questions, notably sexual and conjugal morality, divorce and remarriage. Some are reported as not accepting the Church’s clear position on abortion. It has also been noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teachings. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a “good Catholic” and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a GRAVE ERROR that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the Unted States and elsewhere.” (Speech to U.S. bishops in Los Angeles, Sept. 16, 1987)
What the magisterium teaches can be found here:

Pius XII, Casti Connubii
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

Paul VI, Humanae Vitae
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae_en.html
 
at this point for me the act in the original question would not yet be subjectively mortal?
From Pius XI, Casi Connubii:
Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.” (St. August., De coniug. adult., lib. II, n. 12, Gen, XXXVIII, 8-10)

Casti Connubii, 55]
At this point, what do you know and what do you have the opportunity to know about the grave matter as described in Catholic doctrine? Ignorance or lack of it does not change whether a sin is of grave matter. Futhermore, ignorance is a sin if one is ignorant of that which we are bound to and should know.

While we are bound to follow our informed conscience, “Conscience does not constitute an autonomous and exclusive authority for deciding the truth of a doctrine… there should never be a diminishment of that fundamental openness loyally to accept the teaching of the Magisterium as is fitting for every believer by reason of the obedience of faith.” (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Instruction on the Vocation of the Theologian, 28-29)
 
From Pius XII, Casi Connubii:
Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.” (St. August., De coniug. adult., lib. II, n. 12, Gen, XXXVIII, 8-10)

Casti Connubii, 55]
 
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St.Eric:
What about a priest who tells you that withdrawing during intercourse and using contraceptives is OK and not a mortal sin. My confessor tells me that I am too scrupulos and not to worry, in essence he said what ever my wife and I consent to in the marriage bed is permissible. Should I take his advice and “not worry?” Everything else I have read on this site, including advice from the “ask an apologist” indicates that if I follow what my priest says, I will be in a state of mortal sin. This is killing me! Could I go to Hell if my heart is in the right place, i.e., following the spiritual direction of my priest, but the advice is bad and leading me into a mortal sin??? :mad: :mad: :mad:
\find a good orthodox priest who gives good spiritual direction and stick with him for confession, don’t priest shop.
 
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Benjamin89:
One time in confession the priest told me if I had committed a sin I would know it. He said I would stop thinking about God, and he may have said some other stuff. Can I go by this. For instance, can I say right now I am in a state of grace because I would know it if I had committed a mortal sin?
Be assured Benjamin89:) that since to commit mortal sin, one must knowingly and willingly consent to something which one believes to be a mortal sin, hence you would know if you committed a mortal sin…one cannot commit a mortal sin with the power to condemn one to Hell without knowing it!

Send regards - Barb:)
 
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Benjamin89:
One time in confession the priest told me if I had committed a sin I would know it. He said I would stop thinking about God, and he may have said some other stuff. Can I go by this. For instance, can I say right now I am in a state of grace because I would know it if I had committed a mortal sin?
If you want a checklist for daily examination of your conscience to see if you have committed mortal sins:

www.catholic.org/frz/examen/mortal_main.htm
 
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tjmiller:
It is an official dogma of the Catholic Faith that, apart from a special revelation, no one can know with the certainty of faith whether or not he or she is in a state of grace.

It is true, though, that one cannot “accidentally” or “unknowingly” commit mortal sin.
Those two seem to contradict each other. If we can know whether we are in mortal sin, why not whether we are in the state of grace?

Perhaps one should define “state of grace”. Or are we to believe that after baptism or a sincere confession we still can’t know that we are in the state of grace?

I compared the dogma in Ott with the declaration by Trent, and Trent does not use the phrase “state of grace”, but rather “has achieved the grace of God”, which corresponds to the Summa’s phraseology of “has sanctifying grace” several centuries earlier.

But the Summa has some interesting insights:

There are three ways of knowing a thing: first, by revelation, and thus anyone may know that he has grace, …

Secondly, a man may, of himself, know something, and with certainty; and in this way no one can know that he has grace. For certitude about a thing can only be had when we may judge of it by its proper principle. Thus it is by undemonstrable universal principles that certitude is obtained concerning demonstrative conclusions. Now no one can know he has the knowledge of a conclusion if he does not know its principle. But the principle of grace and its object is God, Who by reason of His very excellence is unknown to us, according to Job 36:26: “Behold God is great, exceeding our knowledge.” And hence His presence in us and His absence cannot be known with certainty, according to Job 9:11: “If He come to me, I shall not see Him; if He depart I shall not understand.” And hence man cannot judge with certainty that he has grace, according to 1 Cor. 4:3,4: “But neither do I judge my own self . . . but He that judgeth me is the Lord.”

Thirdly, things are known conjecturally by signs; and thus anyone may know he has grace, when he is conscious of delighting in God, and of despising worldly things, and inasmuch as a man is not conscious of any mortal sin. And thus it is written (Apoc. 2:17): “To him that overcometh I will give the hidden manna . . . which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it,” because whoever receives it knows, by experiencing a certain sweetness, which he who does not receive it, does not experience. Yet this knowledge is imperfect; hence the Apostle says (1 Cor. 4:4): “I am not conscious to myself of anything, yet am I not hereby justified,” since, according to Ps. 18:13: "Who can understand sins? From my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord, and from those of others spare Thy servant."

Reply to Objection 2: It is an essential condition of knowledge that a man should have certitude of the objects of knowledge; and again, it is an essential condition of faith that a man should be certain of the things of faith, and this, because certitude belongs to the perfection of the intellect, wherein these gifts exist. Hence, whoever has knowledge or faith is certain that he has them. But it is otherwise with grace and charity and such like, which perfect the appetitive faculty.

Summa Theologica
Whether man can know that he has grace?
catholicprimer.org/summa/FS/FS112.html#FSQ112A5THEP1

This provides the very revealing notion that grace is not of the intellect, but of the will. For grace is directly related to charity. We can only know we have charity indirectly and by our actions.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known.

From this we also gather that we may not be aware of all our secret sins (sins of omission).

I should point out that the Church teaches that the priest in confession serves also as a judge, and part of that is to help determine whether a sin is mortal or venial, because we don’t always “know”.

To be consistent, if we can know with intellectual certainty that we have grace, then neither can we know our all our sins with the same certainty. (Except by revelation).

And if we can know our mortal sins “with certainty”, then we can also know whether we are in the “state of grace” with the same certainty. (E.g. after confessing them)

I have definitely learned something in researching this.

hurst
 
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marty1818:
You can’t accidently commit a mortal sin. If you commit a mortal sin you will know. If you have doubts on whether or not something you did was a mortal sin, it probably isn’t.
If you have doubts, you should ask your confessor, who is appointed to judge those matters. If you are truly unsure, then the best advice is to follow the confessor.
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marty1818:
If you are not in a state of mortal sin, you are in a state of grace.
And yet, Church teaching is that you can’t know with intellectual certainty (“certainty of faith”) that you “have grace”. So if what you say is true, then it must be possible to be in mortal sin without being intellectually certain.

This is perhaps confusing intellectual certainty with moral certainty. See my prior post for additional comments.

I think we can conclude that the phrase “being in the state of grace” is meant of moral certainty, and does not refer to an intellectual certainty of having “achieved grace”. Thus, keeping that in mind, we should be safe in saying we “know” we are in the “state of grace”, particularly after a sincere confession.

hurst
 
asquared said:
\find a good orthodox priest who gives good spiritual direction and stick with him for confession, don’t priest shop.

Good advice but how does one do this without priest shopping? I am currently on my fourth confessor- the most orthodox of them by far- and he STILL GIVES THE SAME ADVICE!!! :banghead: Should I just stick with what he says and go with it? It is not like I have a lot of options for Catholic priests in rural Oregon State. :mad: :mad:
 
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tjmiller:
It is an official dogma of the Catholic Faith that, apart from a special revelation, no one can know with the certainty of faith whether or not he or she is in a state of grace.

It is true, though, that one cannot “accidentally” or “unknowingly” commit mortal sin.
Can someone elaborate on this? I see these two statements as contradictory.
 
"Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith if he be in the state of grace. (De Fide)

"Against the teaching of the Reformers, thah the justified possess certainty of faith which excludes all doubt about their justification, the Council of Trent declared: ‘If one considers his own weakness and his defective disposition, he may well be fearful and anxious as to his state of grace, as nobody knows with the certainty of faith, which permits of no error, that he has achieved the grace of God.’

“…The reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this, that without a special revelation nobody can with the certainty of faith know whether or not he has fufilled all the conditions which are necesary for the achieving of justification. The impossibility of the certainty of faith, however, by no means excludes a high moral certainty supported by the testimony of conscience.” (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 261-262)

So the key concept here is “certainty of faith” - i.e., absolute assurance beyond a shadow of a doubt - as opposed to a moral certitude based upon a reasonable probability.

It won’t do to say that if one is not in mortal sin, then one is, ipso facto, in a state of grace. Infants and children under the age of discretion are not, nor can they be, guilty of mortal sin, but they are not by that token in possession of sanctifying grace.

Now if I have lost grace through mortal sin, but confess my sins and receive absolution, can I be sure I am in a state of grace? Yes, with that relative moral certainty mentioned above. Further, I have always been rather fond of the notion that the absolution of the priest constitutes *as it were * a “special divine revelation”, both conferring grace and assuring me thereof, insofar as he is acting in persona Christi capiti
 
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