About our Lady's perpetual virginity

[DeusExMachina]

I have been mulling on this for the past while, and the more evangelical/reformed t denials I see of this Truth the more confused I become. Literally every church father from c. 200 ad onward, many of whom are revered by Protestants.writes about Mary’s everlasting virginity and/or that Jesus’s "siblings’’ weren’t real siblings; can they (protestants) just not read greek and latin correctly?? And even if they think the Church Fathers were "too catholic’’ how do they not realize that their reformation heroes such as Luther, Zwingli, and Wesley all believed this dogma too? Or to appease “sola scriptura” devotees, doesnt it seem fishy that Jesus would entrust his mother to one of his disciples if he had brothers and sisters who could take care of her? If all else fails, isn’t even the idea of a man taking the virginity of the women who clothed the word of God in human flesh seem like sacraleige, or a defilement of a “sacred place?” Either something got messed up during the evolution of “Low church” Christianity or I am losing my marbles
{End Rant}

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with you because the unique role of our blessed Mother in our salvation sets her apart from other women, not because she is intrinsically superior (all of us being equal in the sight of God) but because she was destined to suffer with her Son and dedicate herself totally to Him during the relatively short time He was on this earth. She must have realised He needed her love more than anyone else’s, especially after Simeon predicted a sword would pierce her heart. No bond is closer than that of the woman who had our Saviour in her womb and suckled Him when He was a helpless baby. Even grown men turn to their mothers when they are in anguish and despair because they know who understands them better than anyone else. It must have certainly been true of Jesus who anticipated His Passion and Death long before those terrible events occurred. It is not for nothing she is called the Mother of Sorrows because they were totally united in their acceptance of the Father’s Will for our redemption. They probably never spoke about it but they must have known in their hearts their joint mission had to be accomplished. She had accepted it before Jesus was born and He had spoken of it even as a boy lost in the Temple. I believe Mary should be called the co-Redemptrix but titles are of far less importance than the love Mary has for her Son, His love for her and their love for us. No other person could come between them either in this world or the next. Their vocation was and is our union with them until the end of time. It is reflected in His final words to the Apostles before they went to Gethsemane:

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

And in the words of St Paul:

5 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”o]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. 38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,p] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This earth is a desolate desert if we lack belief and hope in the power of love to overcome evil and give us life with God in heaven. It is a question of all or nothing.
That is why we ask Mary in particular to pray for us at the hour of our death and Our Father to deliver us from evil…

 

[Bob_Crowley]

In their zeal to avoid anything “Catholic”, the Reformers and their descendants threw out the baby with the bathwater in a number of areas.

The ever multiplying divisions within Protestantism and the development of sects like the Mormons and the Jehovahs Witnesses are logical developments of this trend, where they’ve gone even further, and moved into heresy.

One time back in my Protestant days I was discussing the possibility of revival in Australia (long overdue) with my old Pastor. I wondered where it was most likely to start, and he replied that he thought it would have to be within the Catholic Church.

As far as he was concerned, Protestantism was far too divided. “Shocking!” was how he put it, adding “When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn’t agree how far to spit”.

He also commented “Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church” and “Protestants can be quite arrogant when it comes to the Catholic Church” (“Arrogant” as in the sense of “self righteous”). And he was a Protestant pastor.

So in one sense I’m not worried about the Protestant attitude to Mary. It annoys me, but if revival does come, you can bet she’ll be a leading part of it. The Marian apparitions haven’t been happening for no reason.

 

[godisgood77]

I have been mulling on this for the past while, and the more evangelical/reformed t denials I see of this Truth the more confused I become. Literally every church father from c. 200 ad onward, many of whom are revered by Protestants.writes about Mary’s everlasting virginity and/or that Jesus’s "siblings’’ weren’t real siblings; can they (protestants) just not read greek and latin correctly?? And even if they think the Church Fathers were "too catholic’’ how do they not realize that their reformation heroes such as Luther, Zwingli, and Wesley all believed this dogma too? Or to appease “sola scriptura” devotees, doesnt it seem fishy that Jesus would entrust his mother to one of his disciples if he had brothers and sisters who could take care of her? If all else fails, isn’t even the idea of a man taking the virginity of the women who clothed the word of God in human flesh seem like sacraleige, or a defilement of a “sacred place?” Either something got messed up during the evolution of “Low church” Christianity or I am losing my marbles
{End Rant}

I believe the dogma. I just don’t know why it’s important.

There is nothing wrong with sex in marriage. In fact it is a good… so sure Mary was a virgin, but I don’t know what that tells us.

The miracle is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. AMAZING! The fact the Mary never laid with Joseph doesn’t really add anything to story… I could be wrong… I’d love to hear thoughts on why it matters.

 

[zyzz]

Just a quick question: “why is this alleged perpetual virginity so important”? Why would anyone care if she had a little “Earthly” fun? Consummating a marriage is not something that is “dirty” or “despicable”… at least I so heard.

 

[pianistclare]

It’s important because He is GOD.
God did not have a mortal beginning.
Period.
It has nothing to do with sex.
It has everything to do with His divinity.

 

[godisgood77]

It’s important because He is GOD.
God did not have a mortal beginning.
Period.
It has nothing to do with sex.
It has everything to do with His divinity.

That’s fine… However, the dogma under discussion is perpetual virginity. Why does it matter that Mary was perpetually virginal? She was married… Why is it important that she remained a virgin? What does it teach us?

 

[HCTC]

I believe the dogma. I just don’t know why it’s important.

There is nothing wrong with sex in marriage. In fact it is a good… so sure Mary was a virgin, but I don’t know what that tells us.

The miracle is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. AMAZING! The fact the Mary never laid with Joseph doesn’t really add anything to story… I could be wrong… I’d love to hear thoughts on why it matters.

My thoughts are the same.

 

[pianistclare]

That’s fine… However, the dogma under discussion is perpetual virginity. Why does it matter that Mary was perpetually virginal? She was married… Why is it important that she remained a virgin? What does it teach us?

God could not ORIGINATE from a human.

Plus, history tells us that Mary was a consecrated Virgin in the Temple.
Consecrated means you profess perpetual virginity.
People took these oaths seriously.

Just because she needed a husband to care fro herself and the Child, does not mean she was looking for that kind of relationship. She wasn’t about to toss aside her vow, especially since she had been chosen by God and visited by the Holy Spirit.

And it was foretold that the Messiah would be born of a Virgin.
The Miraculous for people of that time made things more obvious/clear to them.
You’d think it would today as well.

it teaches us to follow the Will of God, no matter the sacrifice.

 

[tonyrey]

That’s fine… However, the dogma under discussion is perpetual virginity. Why does it matter that Mary was perpetually virginal? She was married… Why is it important that she remained a virgin? What does it teach us?

Mary was married because Joseph knew she would otherwise have been suspected of dishonourable behaviour and she also needed a husband to care for her but he must have realised she was dedicated to God. She must have confided in him that an angel had appeared to her and told her she would bear the Messiah. It was obvious she had a unique vocation and for that reason he respected her virginity. His role was not an ordinary one but to protect her and her child because they lived in a dangerous world as subsequent events demonstrate. Unselfish love is far more important than a sexual relationship even though God created man and woman for each other. If for any reason a marriage cannot be consummated it doesn’t necessarily follow it is a failure. In the eyes of the world total abstinence is unnatural but the highest form of love doesn’t count the cost. All that matters is that God’s will is done and He gives us the grace to be able to live at a supernatural level. Nothing is impossible for Him and nothing is impossible for us if, as both Mary and Joseph did, we respond to His love with faith, courage and determination.

 

[tonyrey]

God could not ORIGINATE from a human.

Plus, history tells us that Mary was a consecrated Virgin in the Temple.
Consecrated means you profess perpetual virginity.
People took these oaths seriously.

Just because she needed a husband to care fro herself and the Child, does not mean she was looking for that kind of relationship. She wasn’t about to toss aside her vow, especially since she had been chosen by God and visited by the Holy Spirit.

And it was foretold that the Messiah would be born of a Virgin.
The Miraculous for people of that time made things more obvious/clear to them.
You’d think it would today as well.

it teaches us to follow the Will of God, no matter the sacrifice.

I hadn’t read your post when I wrote mine and I’m delighted we came to the same conclusions independently. Although I didn’t realise Mary was a consecrated Virgin it couldn’t have been otherwise in view of her role as the mother of our Saviour,

 

[pianistclare]

I hadn’t read your post when I wrote mine and I’m delighted we came to the same conclusions independently. Although I didn’t realise Mary was a consecrated Virgin it couldn’t have been otherwise in view of her role as the mother of our Saviour,