About Paul's view of the church

[Templum]

Hi,

Can someone help me understand what Paul is saying in his first letter to Timothy? When he speaks about “church worship”, he talks about the roles of women and men. His view of women in church is depressing I find. When he says, “For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s Law.”

Adam followed Eve, so he too, was deceived. Eve alone, was not deceived. They both were. She was the first to be tempted and fall into sin. However, Adam too, was tempted and fell into sin. Why is Paul so hard on women? What does our Pope say about women in the church? I find Paul’s view more subjective than anything.

I hope that you can help me understand more what Paul is trying to say. He was a Jew and I feel that his comments are inspired from the Jewish customs, not from God.

Templum

 

[Murray1105]

This is an interesting qusestion. One thing about the fall is the serpent talks to eve and deceives her. Adam never says that the fruit looked good. This however does not mean Eve is the problem. Quite the opposite actually. Yes she was deceived but adam failed to act out his role as protector of the garden and defend his bride and lay down his life for her. He refused to lay down his own life for God. He acted cowardly and chose his life instead of God’s. Scott Hahn discusses this in greater detail in “first comes love” and “a father who keeps his promises.” About the women in church. It is my understanding that in the synagogues the men sat in front and the women and children in back at that time, and that the women and children would talk and the men couldn’t hear. Back then it was the mans job to teach his family what he learned. It still is but women are free to learn on their own. You ask why is St. Paul so hard on women; I believe he is even harder on men. When he says women be subject to your husbands he follows it with much stricter guidelines for man loving his spouse. We are use to a democratic society in comparission to a kingdom, a country where men fail to be fathers so women are the head of households. Our clultural differences are great. I hope that helps.

 

[MACHIU]

I think the verse is merely stating unchanged fact (or doctrine) where women was the first deceived. Even the devil recognize that women are the weaker half of humanity, therefore tempting Eve instead straight to Adam.

Like it or not, men have (or potentially have) the higher spiritual authority than women. If you check Genesis 3, it is only when Adam eat the fruit, their eyes opened.

So 2 Tim2:14 is not a verse especially to degrade women, however, people need to understand that men and women are created to fulfill different roles in human salvation .

So let’s not “cry over spilled milk” and work together towards our salvation.

God Bless.

 

[diggerdomer]

Hi,

Can someone help me understand what Paul is saying in his first letter to Timothy? When he speaks about “church worship”, he talks about the roles of women and men. His view of women in church is depressing I find. When he says, “For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s Law.”

Adam followed Eve, so he too, was deceived. Eve alone, was not deceived. They both were. She was the first to be tempted and fall into sin. However, Adam too, was tempted and fell into sin. Why is Paul so hard on women? What does our Pope say about women in the church? I find Paul’s view more subjective than anything.

I hope that you can help me understand more what Paul is trying to say. He was a Jew and I feel that his comments are inspired from the Jewish customs, not from God.

Templum

Men do not have a higher spiritual authority than women.

This passage of Scripture needs to be interpreted in light of the whole Bible and the whole tradition of the Church. Paul, in 1 Cor 11 and other letters clearly notes the leadership roles women had and that they taught/prophesied. This one passage seems an exception, and is not worth holding up as some universal norm. Certainly, the Catholic Church doesn’t.

As with all letters, these were written to one community for a specific situation, the admonitions in them may or may not be universal and eternal. Plus, there is a difference of opinion on whether this letter was written by Paul or one of his followers, so we can’t hold Paul totally accountable for the message.

 

[juliamajor]

That’s why 1 timothy is one of the disputed Pauline letters.It doesn’t jive with other of his letters.

 

[MACHIU]

Men do not have a higher spiritual authority than women.

This passage of Scripture needs to be interpreted in light of the whole Bible and the whole tradition of the Church. Paul, in 1 Cor 11 and other letters clearly notes the leadership roles women had and that they taught/prophesied. This one passage seems an exception, and is not worth holding up as some universal norm. Certainly, the Catholic Church doesn’t.

As with all letters, these were written to one community for a specific situation, the admonitions in them may or may not be universal and eternal. Plus, there is a difference of opinion on whether this letter was written by Paul or one of his followers, so we can’t hold Paul totally accountable for the message.

I am not saying that men have higher spiritual power over women. It is true that we have to consider the culture of that time. I also believe that what said in one verse must be in harmony with the whole Bible. And I also believe that the Bible as a whole cannot change their meaning then, now and tomorrow and what is written in a verse may have several layers of meaning.

We - the whole Church - are called the Bride of Christ. They are countless analogies in Old and New Testament that symbolize God as the Bridegroom and us (male or female) as the Bride. This is understood as God gives life, grace and blessing to His Bride. And we - as His Bride - are invited to receive and nurture it.

Men should be the giver/initiator while women should be the receiver/nurturer. That is how God created men and women. The author of the scripture is using men/women analogy to explain God-mankind relationship. Again I am not talking in corporate/social sense but in spiritual sense. Men and women should work together towards salvation by working their own distinct role.

There is a reason why the Catholic Church only ordains male priests, there is a reason why we called God, the Father and Jesus become the Son of God (not God the Mother or Jesus the Daughter of God) and so on.

There is also a profound reason why women (and ONLY women) are given the miraculous power of creation within them. No man has been able to perform what God did in Eden, but women is given the power to create and carry life in their womb. The power to create life is reserved only for God, but through men/women relationship the honor falls to women.

2 Tim 2 invites both men and women to fulfill their roles and respect others.

God Bless

 

[diggerdomer]

I am not saying that men have higher spiritual power over women.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn’t know how else to interpret your comment “Like it or not, men have (or potentially have) the higher spiritual authority than women.”

There is a reason why the Catholic Church only ordained male priests, there is a reason why we God, the Father and Jesus become the Son of God (not God the Mother or Jesus the Daughter of God) and so on.

The reasons you gave are not the reasons the Catholic Church restricts priestly ordination to males.

Jesus was a male, in humanity, pure and simple. That’s a biological fact. So?

There is also a profound reason why women (and ONLY women) are given the miraculous power of creation within them. No man has been able to perform what God did in Eden, but women is given the power to create and carry life in their womb. The power to create life is reserved only for God, but through men/women relationship the honor falls to women.

Men AND women – together – not individually – have the gift of creating life. Not one or the other. Both are honored.

 

[MACHIU]

The reasons you gave are not the reasons the Catholic Church restricts priestly ordination to males.

I agree, the verse is not the reason the the Church only ordains male priests. What I meant was men and women has different roles in the Church. I am trying to relate to 1 Tim 2:11. I guess this is not part of the OP original questions, so I apologize for the inclusion of this part of my answer.

Jesus was a male, in humanity, pure and simple. That’s a biological fact. So?

That’s one of the points in my original reply. It is a fact (according to book of Genesis) that Adam was created before Eve. It is also a fact (according to book of Genesis) Eve was tempted and deceived first then went to Adam to give him the fruit.
Those are facts that we cannot change. So why so depressed about it? (as the OP stated).

Men AND women – together – not individually – have the gift of creating life. Not one or the other. Both are honored.

I totally agree. But only women can carry that life in her body. Feeling every move and growth of the said miracle. Again reinforcing my point that men and women has different roles. Again, this part of my post may not be the answer the OP was looking for.

God Bless.

 

[diggerdomer]

I

That’s one of the points in my original reply. It is a fact (according to book of Genesis) that Adam was created before Eve. It is also a fact (according to book of Genesis) Eve was tempted and deceived first then went to Adam to give him the fruit.
Those are facts that we cannot change. So why so depressed about it? (as the OP stated).

I am not depressed.

I don’t understand what relevance your interpretation of Genesis (regarding who may have been created first) has regarding the OP question.

 

[MACHIU]

diggerdomer;#post6025847:

I am not depressed.

His view of women in church is depressing I find. When he says, “For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s Law.”

Not you, diggerdomer, but Templum - the Original Poster stated that (s)he is.
diggerdomer;#post6025847:

I don’t understand what relevance your interpretation of Genesis (regarding who may have been created first) has regarding the OP question.

Again, read the original post again on what Templum find depressing. And I even use your “fact” argument. The verse relates to the Fall of Man account - a biblical fact. What I am saying is why would Templum be depressed over a fact that she cannot change.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Hi,

Can someone help me understand what Paul is saying in his first letter to Timothy? When he speaks about “church worship”, he talks about the roles of women and men. His view of women in church is depressing I find. When he says, “For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s Law.”

Adam followed Eve, so he too, was deceived. Eve alone, was not deceived. They both were. She was the first to be tempted and fall into sin. However, Adam too, was tempted and fell into sin. Why is Paul so hard on women? What does our Pope say about women in the church? I find Paul’s view more subjective than anything.

I hope that you can help me understand more what Paul is trying to say. He was a Jew and I feel that his comments are inspired from the Jewish customs, not from God.

Templum

If this was all we had from Paul concerning the Fall then it would be too rigid against women. But Paul says many other things about it that are just as hard and more demanding on Adam, and he says things about both that clarify the roles of both man and woman. John Paul II gave a beautiful teaching here vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

I also recommend reading what I have done on the Fall, not because I have anything to offer, but I make a big use of the Catechism, Papal letters, and the Fathers and Doctors of the Church. Here is the link litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Gen.+Chapter+3

 

[fdesales]

Hi,

Can someone help me understand what Paul is saying in his first letter to Timothy? When he speaks about “church worship”, he talks about the roles of women and men. His view of women in church is depressing I find. When he says, “For Adam was created first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God’s Law.”

Adam followed Eve, so he too, was deceived. Eve alone, was not deceived. They both were. She was the first to be tempted and fall into sin. However, Adam too, was tempted and fell into sin. Why is Paul so hard on women? What does our Pope say about women in the church? I find Paul’s view more subjective than anything.

I hope that you can help me understand more what Paul is trying to say. He was a Jew and I feel that his comments are inspired from the Jewish customs, not from God.

Templum

Templum,

Paul is not making a case for blaming the woman for the fall.

In Romans, he writes:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:12-17

Paul is making a theological statement that compares Adam to Christ. Eve’s sin is not important here, it is Adam’s sin that brings death into the world…

Now, regarding 1 Tim 2…

I will therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up pure hands, without anger and contention. In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, But as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works. Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 1 Tim 2:8-11

It should be obvious that Paul is not stating that woman are inferior, but that modesty and chastity are more important to God than baubbles and decoration of the body. Woman are to profess good works (as men are) rather than to just LOOK as a good work…!

As to women teaching (in public), we should not be anachronistic and place OUR particular views of women onto the 1st century Jewish/Greek society that Paul writes from and to… At this stage of time, the Church is not so interested in changing society as in changing individuals. Thus, Paul does not advocate woman’s rights, or freedom for slaves, things we take for granted. Remember, the first Christians were EXPECTING the second coming of Christ. There was no desire to change worldly institutions at this stage of history.

Paul attacks what he can control - laxness in the individual who does not follow Christ and the Gospel axioms. To maintain order, Paul suggests that women do not teach in Church. We see this also in 1 Cor.14:34. Paul, as any good teacher, refers to the creation story for his reference to woman rightfully remaining silent.

However, when Paul is not teaching order in the Church assembly, he clearly blames Adam for bringing sin into the world. Men do not escape his eye…

Regards

 

[juliamajor]

In Judaism Adam is considered more guilty then Eve because He heard the command not to eat from God Himself.He didn’t tell her the straight skinny but paraphrased(she tells the snake what Adam told her and it’s not precise).Because Eve hands Adam fruit so readily that means Adam was there the whole time listening to the snake and Eve’s conversation and did nothing to correct her.By passing the blame to Eve(she made me eat it) he showed cowardice and self serving.

 

[diggerdomer]

Not you, diggerdomer, but Templum - the Original Poster stated that (s)he is.

Again, read the original post again on what Templum find depressing. And I even use your “fact” argument. The verse relates to the Fall of Man account - a biblical fact. What I am saying is why would Templum be depressed over a fact that she cannot change.

Thanks for the clarification, appreciate it.

I might differ on the “biblical fact” idea. I thought Templum was sharing a feeling of being depressed at how women might be perceived as written about in the specific passage cited, which is not about Genesis but about a passage in one of the Pauline letters.

I don’t think Templum has contributed to this thread since the original post, so perhaps we need to hear from him/her to get more clarification on where this conversation should go.

 

[Templum]

Hi,

I want to thank all of you who have contibuted great interpretations of what Paul thought in his days. I used the word “depressing”, but I should have simply said that what Paul said in the passage I quoted, wasn’t (name removed by moderator)irational. I found it negative. It didn’t make me worry too much. I could still sleep at night. You all read a lot and have shown me how to interpret Paul. Your knowledge has allowed me to see the general picture. I got “stuck” on one excerpt without looking at Paul as a whole in the Scriptures. I’m a student of the Bible and haven’t yet studied all of Paul’s passages.

Your answers are clear and inspirational. I can’t refute or add to what you said because I’m not well-read yet. What you did say was interesting, uplifting and worthy of keeping in mind.

Thanks,
Templum