Abram and Sodom vs. Noah and the Flood

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Lazerlike42

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A friend of mine is in a philosophy class where they are analyzing the Bible as literature. I know it sounds off but it’s not that bad. In any event, it is still off as I said, and the professor has asked the class to answer this question for the morning:

What is the essential different between the situation with Noah and the flood, and the situation with Abram and Sodom and Gomorrah?

She asked for help. I told her that the essential difference is that in the first case, Noah helps God, and God destroys His enemies. In the second, God helps Abram, and Abram destroys his enemies. In other words, in one case man helps God in destroying God’s enemies, and in the other God helps man in destroying man’s enemies. That seems clear. However, I have the feeling he is going to introduce some challenge, try to find something wrong with this, or prove some point.

If anyone can speculate on what he might try to make of this, that would be greatly appreciated. I’d like to be able to warn her ahead of time and give her a defense. Thanks!
 
Im not sure I get the question, one was a local punishment and the other was wide spread punishment. The flood was promised that such an event wouldnt happen again.
 
Hi all!

Lazerlike42, try this. I heard this from one of my rabbis once.

Abraham was greater than Noah but Moses was greater still.

With Noah, God told him (Genesis 6:13-22) that He was going to zap all of humanity except for Noah & his family and that he should build an ark to save himself and his family. What did Noah then do? Exactly what he was told and nothing more. Noah did not pray to/or attempt to intercede with/ God regarding his fellow men. Neither does the scripture record that he exhorted them to repent. Noah did what he was told.

When God tells Abraham that He is going to destroy Sodom & Gomorah (Genesis 18:17-33), Abraham rises to the occasion and pleads with God:
‘Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from You to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from You; shall not the judge of all the earth do justly?’
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When God says that there aren’t 50 righteous men in the cities, Abraham then bargains with God, to 45, 40, 30, 20 and righteous men. Abraham does Noah one better. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy any righteous men in the cities…but the wicked he consigns to their doom. Abraham does not pray for them.

Now look at Moses. In Deuteronomy 9:25-29, Moses tells us:
So I fell down before the Lord the forty days and forty nights that I fell down; because the Lord had said He would destroy you. And I prayed unto the Lord, and said: ‘O Lord God, destroy not Your people and Your inheritance, that You have redeemed through Your greatness, that You have brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Remember Your servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin; lest the land whence You brought us out say: Because the Lord was not able to bring them into the land which He promised unto them, and because He hated them, He has brought them out to slay them in the wilderness. Yet they are Your people and Your inheritance, that You did bring out by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm.’
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Moses prays to God and pleads with Him for everybody, including and especially the wicked and the sinners. Thus while Abraham (who prayed only for the righteous) was greater than Noah (who prayed for nobody), Moses was greater still (because he prayed for everyone).

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋 http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif
 
stillsmallvoice

What is the “sod” of Noah’s life? Thanks!
 
Hi laserlike42,
I dont think I would suggest that God ever needed or needs anyones help for anything. Noah did as he was told so he would not die. Abraham did not want the destruction of Sodom, thats why he tried to talk God out of it.
I think the biggest difference that I can come up with quickly without really doing a lot of pondering is that in the first God used water to destroy the wicked and in the latter He used fire. 🙂
 
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tdandh26:
Hi laserlike42,
I dont think I would suggest that God ever needed or needs anyones help for anything. Noah did as he was told so he would not die. Abraham did not want the destruction of Sodom, thats why he tried to talk God out of it.
I think the biggest difference that I can come up with quickly without really doing a lot of pondering is that in the first God used water to destroy the wicked and in the latter He used fire. 🙂
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The case of Sodom and Gomorrah in this story is one that occurs before the fire. It is a different story alltogether. Read Genesis 14. 🙂
 
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Lazerlike42:
A friend of mine is in a philosophy class where they are analyzing the Bible as literature. I know it sounds off but it’s not that bad. In any event, it is still off as I said, and the professor has asked the class to answer this question for the morning:

What is the essential different between the situation with Noah and the flood, and the situation with Abram and Sodom and Gomorrah?

She asked for help. I told her that the essential difference is that in the first case, Noah helps God, and God destroys His enemies. In the second, God helps Abram, and Abram destroys his enemies. In other words, in one case man helps God in destroying God’s enemies, and in the other God helps man in destroying man’s enemies. That seems clear. However, I have the feeling he is going to introduce some challenge, try to find something wrong with this, or prove some point.

If anyone can speculate on what he might try to make of this, that would be greatly appreciated. I’d like to be able to warn her ahead of time and give her a defense. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Defence against what ?​

Much of the Bible is literature - and literature of a very high order at that: Job for instance. Some is not - such as the censuses in Numbers, or the book of Proverbs. Proverbs is holmelier than many books, but that does not make it less a part of God’s revelation.

Why should inspired texts not be outstanding as literature ? 🙂

The question asked is a good one - or is it wrong to ask philosophical questions about the texts ? (Not that I can see any philosophy here; literary criticism, possibly.)

I don’t see what the problem is ##
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

Lazerlike42, try this. I heard this from one of my rabbis once.

Abraham was greater than Noah but Moses was greater still.

With Noah, God told him (Genesis 6:13-22) that He was going to zap all of humanity except for Noah & his family and that he should build an ark to save himself and his family. What did Noah then do? Exactly what he was told and nothing more. Noah did not pray to/or attempt to intercede with/ God regarding his fellow men. Neither does the scripture record that he exhorted them to repent. Noah did what he was told.

When God tells Abraham that He is going to destroy Sodom & Gomorah (Genesis 18:17-33), Abraham rises to the occasion and pleads with God:

When God says that there aren’t 50 righteous men in the cities, Abraham then bargains with God, to 45, 40, 30, 20 and righteous men. Abraham does Noah one better. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy any righteous men in the cities…but the wicked he consigns to their doom. Abraham does not pray for them.

Now look at Moses. In Deuteronomy 9:25-29, Moses tells us:

Moses prays to God and pleads with Him for everybody, including and especially the wicked and the sinners. Thus while Abraham (who prayed only for the righteous) was greater than Noah (who prayed for nobody), Moses was greater still (because he prayed for everyone).

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋 http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif
Click to expand...

Moses is by far the greatest character in the TaNaKh ISTM 🙂 - he was completely un-selfseeking, prayed for the very people who threatened to stone him; and does this:​

  • Exd 32:7 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go down; for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves;
  • Exd 32:8 they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!’"
  • Exd 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people;
  • Exd 32:10 now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; but of you I will make a great nation."
  • Exd 32:11 But Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
  • Exd 32:12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
  • Exd 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.’"
  • Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people…
There are no words for that - it is simply amazing. That is how great Moses is. And that is only one of many examples of his utter self-forgetfulness. Then there is this:
  • Num 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the spirit that was upon him and put it upon the seventy elders; and when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did so no more.
  • Num 11:26 Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the spirit rested upon them; they were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp.
  • Num 11:27 And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.”
  • Num 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses, one of his chosen men, said, “My lord Moses, forbid them.”
  • Num 11:29 But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!”
  • Num 11:30 And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp.
He shows a humility, meekness, forgetfulness of self, largeness of heart, and patience, faith, hope, and charity, that beggar description.

He does not pray for righteous individuals, but for a disobedient and idiolatrous people; not once, but repeatedly. He prays for those who envy him. They are stricken - he intercedes.

And that is only a part of his greatness; though a very important part. :D. He is wonderful ##
 
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