Abuse victim support groups and the church

[Drawmack]

No it is not. I thought the context was clear enought for most people to understant, but I will break it down to simpler terms.

A school is a teaching entity. It’s primary job is teaching. It has a secondary job of seeing to the welfare of the children who attend. It has no responsibility to help the community at large with their emotional issues.

A church is a ministerial entity. It’s ministry, while including teaching, is much wider in scope in that every person residing in a parish is considered to be the responsibility of that church. Therefore, it has as much responsibility for one person’s needs as it does another.

This is why comparing a school, who will only set up counselling for a specific situation and not provide counselling for everyone in the area, to a church is inaccurate.

So, a church does not need to be concerned with helping clean up a mess its clergy made unless it is also willing to help clean up a similar mess made by other people?

 

[pnewton]

So, a church does not need to be concerned with helping clean up a mess its clergy made unless it is also willing to help clean up a similar mess made by other people?

False dichotomy. It is not an either/or situation.

Also, there was no indication that the OP’s particular church had a clergy who abused anyone.

 

[Corki]

So, do you think that possibly those who have been abused by clergy do have a special need in overcoming this standard response of abuse victims which could easily be aggravated by attending Mass? And, who do you think would be best able to handle this special need?

You bring up two very good points. If a person had an emotionally disturbing experience, healing might be better served if it was not conducted on Church grounds.

As to who should be best able to handle the needs of an abuse victim, that would really be a case-by-case decision. There is no way we could even guess about that from our CAF view. It would probably, in most cases, be a trained professional rather than a group of lay people coming together on thier own.

 

[Drawmack]

False dichotomy. It is not an either/or situation.

Also, there was no indication that the OP’s particular church had a clergy who abused anyone.

It’s not a false dichotomy. You said that school should have a group of students who were sexually abused by one of its employees. You said that you are against the church having such a group unless it is for all victims of sexual abuse.

 

[Drawmack]

You bring up two very good points. If a person had an emotionally disturbing experience, healing might be better served if it was not conducted on Church grounds.

As to who should be best able to handle the needs of an abuse victim, that would really be a case-by-case decision. There is no way we could even guess about that from our CAF view. It would probably, in most cases, be a trained professional rather than a group of lay people coming together on thier own.

You should really read some psychologists work on support groups.

 

[pnewton]

It’s not a false dichotomy.

Helping one group does not preclude helping another group.

You said that school should have a group of students who were sexually abused by one of its employees.

No I did not that was another poster that brought that up. You, to be exact. I never said any such thing. Why would I? It is off topic.

 

[Drawmack]

Helping one group does not preclude helping another group.

You said:

… I do not give one whit for Drawmack’s concern of “how it would look.” Victims of sexually abuse all have similar issues. This narrowing of the focus to just victims of priests is absurd… So no, I do not support such groups unless they are willing to minister to all in need.

So then I asked:

Additionally, if a school has a teacher that is caught molesting children the school will generally offer counseling and support groups for that teacher’s victims. Do you assert that the school should not do this unless they open the counseling up to the larger community of all victims of sexual abuse regardless of the perpetrator even though this would cause a great expense to the school?

Which I would like to point out is not off topic, because analogy is not off topic. So, I pointed to an analogous situation to show the flaw in your logic. You answered this question with:

No.

So, you stated that you only support such groups being set up by a church if they are willing to minister to all in need. However you think that schools should set up groups even if those groups are only for the victims of its employees. Thus you believe that the church shouldn’t help clean up messes made by its clergy unless it is also willing to clean up similar messes made by others.

Let’s use another analogous statement here to demontrate the flaw in your logic.

Let’s say that a priest was found to be an arsonist and convicted of burning five families our of house and home. Should the church pay to rebuild these homes even if they cannot afford to rebuild every house in the diocese which burned down over the same time frame? If the answer is yes, then why should the church help the victims of a priest’s arson activities but not help the victims of a priest’s sexual abuse? If the answer is no, then we see just how far your belief in Christian charity goes.

 

[pnewton]

Let’s say that a priest was found to be an arsonist and convicted of burning five families our of house and home. Should the church pay to rebuild these homes even if they cannot afford to rebuild every house in the diocese which burned down over the same time frame?.

No.

How does this point to a flaw in my logic, especially since I haven’t used any logic but just gave my opinion on this matters?

 

[Corki]

Additionally, if a school has a teacher that is caught molesting children the school will generally offer counseling and support groups for that teacher’s victims.

IRL, when this happens in schools (it is a ‘when’ not an ‘if’), the school provides counselors, and builds “safe environment” type material into the classroom. ALL diocese in the US have “safe environment” programs and, as far as we know, the diocese in question has counseling available, just not lay support groups. I have never heard of a school district that encouraged the kids to form their own, unsupervised, support groups.

You should really read some psychologists work on support groups.

Your point??? I have a degree in psychology. The research on support groups is all over the map. The results of a support groups are greatly influenced by the facilitation and forethought that goes into forming such a group.

.

Let’s use another analogous statement here to demontrate the flaw in your logic.

Let’s say that a priest was found to be an arsonist and convicted of burning five families our of house and home. Should the church pay to rebuild these homes **even if **they cannot afford to rebuild every house in the diocese which burned down over the same time frame? If the answer is yes, then why should the church help the victims of a priest’s arson activities but not help the victims of a priest’s sexual abuse? If the answer is no, then we see just how far your belief in Christian charity goes.

No, I don’t think the parish/diocese should pay to rebuild houses in that scenario. Would you really answer “yes” to that question? They should make sure that the person involved in the arson pays his debt to society. They should try to meet the material needs of the families as they do for all families who lose thier homes and possessions due to disasters.

It is the “even if” that makes this analogy fall apart.

The point you seem to be missing is that, for all we know, the diocese in the OP offers a wide variety of services for victims of abuse – virtually all dioceses do. It has just said “no” to the request of this particular group of people and the support group they have formed. And, as far as we know, the diocese has not done anything to discourage this group either. It just has not provided space.

 

[Drawmack]

No, I don’t think the parish/diocese should pay to rebuild houses in that scenario. Would you really answer “yes” to that question? They should make sure that the person involved in the arson pays his debt to society. They should try to meet the material needs of the families as they do for all families who lose thier homes and possessions due to disasters.

Yes, I would. I think that a church – any church – should make full restitution for the actions of its clergy when those clergy are found to be criminals. This would include rebuilding the homes of the people whose houses were burned down.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, I would. I think that a church – any church – should make full restitution for the actions of its clergy when those clergy are found to be criminals. This would include rebuilding the homes of the people whose houses were burned down.

Do you also think that an owner of a restraunt should pay restitution if one of the waiters also commits a burglary?

 

[Drawmack]

Do you also think that an owner of a restraunt should pay restitution if one of the waiters also commits a burglary?

A restaurant is not a church and a waitress is not clergy. I did not say businesses or employees; I said churches and clergy.

 

[pnewton]

A restaurant is not a church and a waitress is not clergy. I did not say businesses or employees; I said churches and clergy.

I am aware of that. I was just wondering if you had a separate standard for the secular world than you did a religious organation.

 

[Corki]

A restaurant is not a church and a waitress is not clergy. I did not say businesses or employees; I said churches and clergy.

You are right that priest are not just employees. But I have three problems with your reasoning.

1. If a priest or other clergyman was implicated in abuse, that was likely due to their position or duties. The Church absolutely should reach out to help those affected with healing. No argument. That does not mean that every parish or every diocese is going to jump up an provide every type of service that might be requested regardless of efficacy. As I stated above, there is no indication in the OP or subsequent posts that the diocese in question does not have an array of services in place for abuse victims and thier families.
2. If a priest committed arson, it would likely NOT be due to their posisiton or duties. The priest’s criminal activities are his responsibiltiy and he has to deal with the law and make appropriate restitution. The Church will undoubtedly aid the families but she will do so because of their need, not because there was a priest involved.
3. A closer analogy (than employee) might be family member. If your grown son or daughter committed arson would you feel that it was your responsibilty to rebuild the victim’s houses?

 

[Drawmack]

1. A closer analogy (than employee) might be family member. If your grown son or daughter committed arson would you feel that it was your responsibilty to rebuild the victim’s houses?

Yes! If my child commits a crime I will do everything in my power to make complete restitution to the victim(s). It is my responsibility as a parent regardless of the child’s age.

 

[Mieta]

The diocese mentioned in the OP does not have a support group. The diocese in question did hold there first ever retreat for victims last year, and supplied letters to thsoe victims stating that there would be follow-up dates (support) in the future. Eleven months have past.

The supoort group in the OP is not a national group. It is Catholic 100%.

The other denomination mentioned took pity on the local group and does not interfere. It did provide a blessing by clergy as requested by the support group before some members headed off to the retreat. A catholic priest was asked, but had to decline as he was not permitted by the bishop to assist the group in any way.

For those seeking an “agenda” motive to my post…I will simply state that I spent my Holy Hour for Vocations praying for both priests and victims yesterday.

The support group “vents” but does so in a supportive way. I would find this both normal and natural. The support group also shares on coping, healing, woundedness, and forgiveness. I would find that all of these things would be normal and part of the any healing process. It is peer leaders, and the leaders rotate.

The diocesan outreach last spring removed any mention of support group from its handout information and has not updated its website information regarding the ‘new’ outreach materials and diocesan policy which omits group support all together.

I am simply trying to understand is the “why.” Why would the church not allow victims to meet on church property? I find it odd that since healing is an ongoing process and that community support would be important to that process, why is it forbidden. That is what I am trying to understand.

I am not here to fight.

Thank you for reading.

 

[kristie_m]

I am simply trying to understand is the “why.” Why would the church not allow victims to meet on church property? I find it odd that since healing is an ongoing process and that community support would be important to that process, why is it forbidden. That is what I am trying to understand.

I am not here to fight.

Thank you for reading.

Again, all we can do is offer speculation. If you want the real reason, go to the source and ask them. Keep bugging people at the diocese until you find someone who will give you a satisfactory answer…even if it’s one you don’t like or agree with, at least you’ll have your reason.

 

[twhite]

I am simply trying to understand is the “why.” Why would the church not allow victims to meet on church property? I find it odd that since healing is an ongoing process and that community support would be important to that process, why is it forbidden. That is what I am trying to understand.

Hi Mieta.

The answer to your question does not lie here. Speculations do. To question the actions or motives of a diocese regarding sexual abuse issues, contact the diocese’s vicar general’s office. To question the actions or motives of a parish, contact the pastor.

In general the Catholic Church strives to promote healing among survivors of sexual abuse. Misunderstandings can result in hurt feelings, which only exacerbates the issue. Please make the appropriate calls or write letters to get to the heart of the matter so you don’t keep spinning your wheels in frustration. You deserve the peace of mind.