Acts 19:1-6 vs Acts 10:44-48 Holy Spirit received AFTER or BEFORE baptism?

[Cathoholic]

Ynotzap. In your post 40 you are quoting my discussion of Acts 19 and then asking about Cornelius in Acts chapter 10. What I sometimes call: “The Cornelius Event”.

This is fine but may confuse new readers to this thread so I’ll sum it up.

Let’s look at (the appropriate verses of) Acts 10.

**
ACTS 10:1-2, 34-35, 43-48** 1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. . . . 34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. . . . 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44 While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Cornelius (et. al.) was the very first of the Gentiles to come into Christianity. Without some sort of approbation directly from God (complete with Jewish Christians witnessing the event too) it would be extremely difficult (“For the Church was not as yet among the Gentiles” and “the very Jews who believed thought that they only belonged to Christ”) to bring Gentiles into the Church.

Ynotzap, you stated (bold and ul mine):

Peter was talking to Cornelius about the way, Jesus, the Good News, the Spirit fell on them and they spoke in Tongues, and praised God. Now these Charisms are not signs of Sanctifying grace, but of edifying grace.

That’s fine. You may be correct (but I don’t think your assertion is correct here).

These signs exhibited BEFORE Cornelius is Baptized MAY be mere “edifying grace”. But the reason I think your assertion is not correct is several of the Fathers statements on this “Cornelius event”.

ST. GREGORY OF NAZIENZEN (The Holy Spirit) comes upon Cornelius and his companions before Baptism, to others after Baptism.

St. Gregory’s statement above, coupled with CCC 1257 (“God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments”) suggests that Cornelius (et. al) did not receive mere edification but more–much more.

I did a catechetical source search and a search of all the Councils and I don’t see the Church further defining this “Cornelius event” yet. Perhaps you have some sources for why you think that Cornelius (et. al.) did NOT receive Sanctifying Grace via extra-ordinary means. I am open to seeing those.

St. Augustine also says this . . .

ST. AUGUSTINE . . . the Apostles were sent to the Gentiles, Cornelius was preached to . . . but upon these it (the Holy Spirit) fell before baptism. For Peter might hesitate whether he might baptize the uncircumcised: the Holy Spirit came, they began to speak with tongues; the invisible gift was given, and took away all doubt about the visible Sacrament; they were all baptized.
– From St. Augustine on the Psalms - PSALM XCVII – Section 11

St. Augustine again . . .

ST. AUGUSTINE For the centurion Cornelius, before baptism, . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit . . . .

Pope St. Gregory the Great said this . . . .

POPE ST. GREGORY THE GREAT . . . . how the Holy Spirit bade him go with them; how the same Holy Spirit who had been wont to come on those baptized in Judea after baptism, came on the Gentiles before baptism. been wont to come on those baptized in Judea after baptism, came on the Gentiles (specifically discussing Cornelius et. al.) before baptism.

This is why I mentioned earlier in the thread that I think this event is an example of a reception of the Holy Spirit via extraordinary means (ordinary means being of course water Baptism), followed immediately by water Baptism (to drive home that it is not an “optional item” for those who CAN be Baptized).

As I said, I am certainly open to what you have said. I used to think of this exactly as you assert. But I have since changed my mind on what is going on here.

I heard Tim Staples state just what the Fathers above stated. This prompted me to review the Fathers on the Cornelius issue and Tim Staples [as usual] was spot on!

Since I could not find anything to the contrary, I thought it was wise for me to accede to “heavy-weights” such as St. Gregory of Nazienzen, St. Augustine, and Pope St. Gregory the Great unless I found something more specifically defined in a more authoritative manner from the Church.

Please share your sources and I’ll check them out with appropriate consideration.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut on an interesting subject. And my thanks also to Tim Staples for an implicit correction for me (the Catholic Answers staff has been a great gift to our epoch in presenting the fullness of the Catholic faith).

I’ll await your (name removed by moderator)ut and proceed as indicated.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[ynotzap]

When it comes to church teaching, if I am in conflict, I will forgo my own position. As far as I understand, I concur with you on many of your statements. I try to understand how the Holy Spirit works in the Church, and not only our Church but in others. I do try to follow His lead the best I can. My spirit gets in the way a lot.
I resist those who try to confine the Holy Spirit many times unknowingly by imposing our wills and thoughts on the faithful and expecting God to conform. This has happened and in the process many have received Baptism, but judging by their conduct, have never been converted.

I make reference to St.Paul: Phil.3:7-11, l Col l:l5-29. Paul in these passages speaks about the pre-eminence of Jesus, that all things were made by Him, and for Him, He was before all things, that in all things He himself might be pre-eminent. The understanding I receive from these quotes is that it is the Father’s will that His Son be acknowledge for who He is, God-man, Redeemer of mankind, and the giver of the Holy Spirit. In Jn.7; 39 it states that the Holy Spirit had not been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit when He ascended to the Father, and then the Apostles would understand all that He had taught them. In taking His rightful place with the Father, He was glorified. Even Mary Magdalane was forbidden to touch Him before His ascension.
Before the Spirit is given the glorification of Jesus is required, His pre-eminence. We know that Baptism sincerely received, acknowledging Jesus for who He is, accepting HIm, repenting, and accepting HIs teachings the Holy Spirit is conferred, we become adopted children, heirs to the Kingdom (continued next post)

 

[ynotzap]

It appear that even the saints have to have this encounter with Jesus before conversion. Conversion brings sanctifying grace, the endowment of the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles they were given, or empowered to witness about Christ with power of the Spirit, that had all the Charisms to do the job. When their preaching was confirmed by these signs they were DISPOSED to receiving Baptism.

A question arises: Does the hearing of the Good News, and being gifted with a super-natural experience, speaking in Tongues, and praising God, and even acknowledging Jesus confer sanctifying grace, and establish the pre-eminence of Christ, can sanctifying grace be received with out the personal encounter with Jesus. there is no doubt, that some grace was received, the edifying grace for example, I also was thinking that Actual grace was received, that something supernatural actually happened that didn’t sanctify, but predisposed them to receive sanctifying grace through Baptism. I see this as the pre-eminence of Christ being served, and then the indwelling of theHoly Spirit I see Baptism as the precedence or the acknowledgement of Christ’s pre-eminence, and I see this as necessary to receiving the Holy Spirit. In a sense, placing Jesus where He belongs on the throne of our hearts and minds Actual Grace is discribed as a transient .supernatural influence of God in the soul, moving it to the salutary act, i.e., to an act ordained to the sanctification and eternal life the existence of this grace is attested to by Holy Scripture, as distinct from habitual grace which speaks of illumination (Psl2:14) of attraction (Cant l;3; Jon.6;34) of impulse (Acts 9;5) the council of Trent describes actual grace as disposing man to justification All of these qualities were present before receiving Sanctifying grace through Baptism.

 

[Cathoholic]

Ynotzap. You said (in post 42):

I do try to follow His lead the best I can. My spirit gets in the way a lot.

I think everyone reading this knows how you feel. I concur that MY spirit gets in the way too sometimes.

You also said:

(Concerning ill will) . . . in the process many have received Baptism, but judging by their conduct, have never been converted.

I think you are correct on that point too.

More importantly, St. Augustine thinks that too . . . .

ST. AUGUSTINE For the centurion Cornelius, before baptism, was better than Simon (Magus), who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled with the Holy Spirit;(3) Simon (Magus), even after baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit.(4) Cornelius, however, would have been convicted of contempt for so holy a sacrament, if, even after he had received the Holy Ghost, he had refused to be baptized. But when he was baptized, he received in no wise a better sacrament than Simon (Magus) . . . .
— St. Augustine: The Writings Against the Manichaeans and Against the Donatists.

To whom much is given . . . much will be required.

Keep up the good work Ynotzap.

God bless.

Cathoholic