Ad orientam question

[didymus]

I’m wondering if anyone knows when the practice of the celebrant facing away from the congregation got started?

I just read a novel* set in Grmany in 1348/9 (right before the Black Death hit) which seemd quite well researched – the author at one point goes into correcting mythology about the Inquisition.
The main character is a pastor who muses to himself at one point that he doesn’t like the new paractice of facing ad orientem which he likens to “a general leading troops” and regrets that most of the cathedrals being built now have their altars set ad orientam.

Any idea if this is accurate?

 

[arieh0310]

Martin Luther was the first to suggest the versus populum. The versus populum innovation first started cropping up in the Catholic churches during the1920’s German “youth movement”, though it was not widespread. I have never head of it being used in the 14th century, though. The fullscale movement away from the Tradition of ad orientem started after V2 even though it was not called for in any documents of the Council.

I think the movement towards the versus populum orientation of the celebrant at mass was well intentioned but misguided attempt to recapture the original intimacy of mass in the early centuries. Scholarship and archeology has definitively disproven the claims that versus populum was the was way the early Church celebrated mass.

Ultimately, versus populum turns the priest into an actor, the community into a self-enclosed circle, and obfuscates the sacrificial character of the Eucharistic liturgy. To quote Ratzinger: “The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself. The common turning toward the east was not a ‘celebration toward the wall’; it did not mean that the priest ‘had his back to the people’: the priest himself was not regarded as so important … A common turning to the east during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of something accidental, but of what is essential. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue but of common worship, of setting off toward the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle but the common movement forward, expressed in a common direction for prayer” (Spirit of the Liturgy)

Below are some good articles:
Adoremus
EWTN
Pontifications

 

[SMHW]

Martin Luther was the first to suggest the versus populum. The versus populum innovation first started cropping up in the Catholic churches during the1920’s German “youth movement”, though it was not widespread. I have never head of it being used in the 14th century, though.

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP but I thought the question was when the tradition of ad orientem became established.

 

[Nekic]

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP but I thought the question was when the tradition of ad orientem became established.

And arieh answered it - it came about via Maritn Luther.

And the OP (I think…) was asking if the book protrayed the versus populum aspect of mass accurately, in which it does not, because there was no such thing as a verusu populum mass in 1348/49. It was 200 years too early.

 

[kleary]

I’m wondering if anyone knows when the practice of the celebrant facing away from the congregation got started?

I just read a novel* set in Grmany in 1348/9 (right before the Black Death hit) which seemd quite well researched – the author at one point goes into correcting mythology about the Inquisition.
The main character is a pastor who muses to himself at one point that he doesn’t like the new paractice of facing ad orientem which he likens to “a general leading troops” and regrets that most of the cathedrals being built now have their altars set ad orientam.

Any idea if this is accurate?

The practice of the priest and people facing the same direction is the original posture of the Mass.

The practice of the priest facing the people is a 16’th century invention done by Martin Luther in order to have the liturgy resemble the last supper paintings. Mass facing the people is not a Catholic practice at all and carries with it many problems at Pope Benedict has pointed out when he was a cardinal.

Ken

 

[LCMS_No_More]

The practice of the priest and people facing the same direction is the original posture of the Mass.

The practice of the priest facing the people is a 16’th century invention done by Martin Luther in order to have the liturgy resemble the last supper paintings. Mass facing the people is not a Catholic practice at all and carries with it many problems at Pope Benedict has pointed out when he was a cardinal.

Ken

Interestingly, Lutherans don’t follow Luther’s advice as most Lutheran parishes still celebrate the Divine Service ad orientam.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The practice of the priest and people facing the same direction is the original posture of the Mass.

The practice of the priest facing the people is a 16’th century invention done by Martin Luther in order to have the liturgy resemble the last supper paintings. Mass facing the people is not a Catholic practice at all and carries with it many problems at Pope Benedict has pointed out when he was a cardinal.

Ken

Almost accurate (the bit about Cardinal Ratzinger, anyway).

To the OP: we don’t know absolutely the original posture. There is, however, early catacomb altars that imply, IIRC, that the priest would have to have his back to the congregation. That puts the practice back to virtually the Church’s beginning.

 

[drforjc]

Interestingly, Lutherans don’t follow Luther’s advice as most Lutheran parishes still celebrate the Divine Service ad orientam.

Are you referring to worldwide practice or the U.S.?
When I was LCMS ad orientem was common but when I went ELCA it was almost always versus populum. (I’ve been a Catholic for 17 years)

 

[palmas85]

Almost accurate (the bit about Cardinal Ratzinger, anyway).

To the OP: we don’t know absolutely the original posture. There is, however, early catacomb altars that imply, IIRC, that the priest would have to have his back to the congregation. That puts the practice back to virtually the Church’s beginning.

Hi Kirk, glad to see that did the reaserch on this one. I trust all is well over there in Lost Wages,

 

[AJV]

The practice of the priest and people facing the same direction is the original posture of the Mass.

The practice of the priest facing the people is a 16’th century invention done by Martin Luther in order to have the liturgy resemble the last supper paintings. Mass facing the people is not a Catholic practice at all and carries with it many problems at Pope Benedict has pointed out when he was a cardinal.

Ken

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but could somebody come up with a reference for that? I’ve recently begun studying Luther’s Mass and breviary changes in more detail and I’ve noticed that several times in the earlier years mention is made of him singing his service at the high altar. I was wondering whether he himself proposed it or whether it was one of his followers. Though he would have probably regarded the debate as inconsequential.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Are you referring to worldwide practice or the U.S.?
When I was LCMS ad orientem was common but when I went ELCA it was almost always versus populum. (I’ve been a Catholic for 17 years)

Well, honestly, my own experience is what I’m going on. Since I was LCMS, I’d only seen ad orientum. I can’t speak to ELCA or other Lutheran synods outside the US.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Hi Kirk, glad to see that did the reaserch on this one. I trust all is well over there in Lost Wages,

I try never to shoot my mouth off unless I know what I’m talking about. Ad orientum is great, I’ve never said otherwise.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Hi Kirk, glad to see that did the reaserch on this one. I trust all is well over there in Lost Wages,

I try never to shoot my mouth off unless I know what I’m talking about. Ad orientum is great, I’ve never said otherwise.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The celebrant facing the people goes back to the early Church, and from my understanding, the Eastern Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, always faced the people.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

The celebrant facing the people goes back to the early Church, and from my understanding, the Eastern Rite of the Roman Catholic Church, always faced the people.

Nope on both accounts. The vast majority of credible authorities state that Mass/Divine Liturgy was celebrated ad orientem. Now, if it just so happens that because of the architecture of the church/lay of the land the priest must face towards the people, it was only to face east and had NOTHING to do with facing the people. We also think that the people might very well have faced east along with the priest and thus the people would have their back towards the priest too.

All of the Eastern Rites (and the Orthodox too) celebrate the Divine Liturgy ad orientem and I’ve never seen or heard otherwise that they face the people even to face east because they always just build the churches to face east or face “liturgical east”. Many (if not most) Eastern altars are free standing, true, but most have a tabernacle on the eastern side that would prevent the priest from facing the people anyway.

The whole “versus populam” is an innovation, pure and simple, to suit the overemphasis of the Mass as a “communal meal”. Then-Cardinal Ratzinger is spot on, same with Msgr. Gamber.