Ad Orientum Novus Ordo

[YoungTradCath]

Isn’t that a liturgical abuse? Electric guitars and drums in Church?

It’s pretty hard to label anything a liturgical abuse or even wrong anymore. It’s practically got to be dropping hosts all over the floor and stepping all over Him for people to agree.

 

[Melchior_1]

jmj1984,

I don’t want to derail the thread either, but I want to respond to a couple of things you said.

I’m not baiting anyone with my previous post. All too often I see posts on this board which paints the Mass from pre-1962 as a Utopian Era where there was no liturgical abuses. This wasn’t the case though, there has always been abuses, without the means of communication we have now it was hard to distribute the information about said abuses. A couple of decades leading up the liturgical reforms some issues were starting to arise, which is one of the reasons why liturgical reforms were started to look at in the 40’s.

Your commentary on music is your opinion, which you’re entitled to. The reality is that if it was a huge issue, then the University of Steubinville would have been corrected a long time ago. Remember, the University is run by the Franciscans. It was founded by Secular Franciscans, Third Order Regulars, and the consecrated religious. Due to the Right of Exemption, the local Bishop can’t tell them to do anything. After the local Guardian/General Superior, it goes directly to the Pope. No Nuncios, no Bishops, no Cardinals. No middle men. Directly to the Pope. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Rome to stamp out contemporary style music.

They didn’t.

A part of this stems from Catholic tradition that has roots with the religious orders and their spiritualities. Francis banned chant, as the common man and poor folk his ordered ministered to would probably not be able to keep up. Over the centuries this continued, and they often integrated the musical styles of local cultures. Remember, they already changed the paradigm when it came to music for banning chant.

You mention St. Theresa, but what you didn’t mention was that she did play the guitar during liturgical functions. nordskoven and Brother JR have talked about this.

Oh, and we have Requiem Masses, Funeral Masses, Wedding Masses, Masses at Schools, Confirmation Masses, Masses with Baptisms, Masses for Remembrance for the Faithfully Departed. We have Eucharistic Prayers and other Prayers for specific scenarios. We have 20+ rights, and several different uses. Case and point; the Anglican Use, which is a part of the Roman Rite.

As for the OP; I haven’t seen any Ad Orientum Ordinary Form Masses in my area.

 

[jmj1984]

jmj1984,

I don’t want to derail the thread either, but I want to respond to a couple of things you said.

I’m not baiting anyone with my previous post. All too often I see posts on this board which paints the Mass from pre-1962 as a Utopian Era where there was no liturgical abuses. This wasn’t the case though, there has always been abuses, without the means of communication we have now it was hard to distribute the information about said abuses. A couple of decades leading up the liturgical reforms some issues were starting to arise, which is one of the reasons why liturgical reforms were started to look at in the 40’s.

No, what you probably got was people pointing out the obvious fact that liturgical abuses are more common nowadays than they were in the past.

Your commentary on music is your opinion, which you’re entitled to. The reality is that if it was a huge issue, then the University of Steubinville would have been corrected a long time ago. Remember, the University is run by the Franciscans. It was founded by Secular Franciscans, Third Order Regulars, and the consecrated religious. Due to the Right of Exemption, the local Bishop can’t tell them to do anything. After the local Guardian/General Superior, it goes directly to the Pope. No Nuncios, no Bishops, no Cardinals. No middle men. Directly to the Pope. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Rome to stamp out contemporary style music.

And? The history of the last 50 years of the church suffices to show the things that people can get away with, with Rome saying nothing or doing very little. That does not however make it right, even if Rome approved it, I could still disagree unless it is going to speak infallibly (unlikely, indeed its questionable whether this even comes under the ambit of infallibility) or authoritatively (more likely than speaking ex cathedra but still quite unlikely).

A part of this stems from Catholic tradition that has roots with the religious orders and their spiritualities. Francis banned chant, as the common man and poor folk his ordered ministered to would probably not be able to keep up. Over the centuries this continued, and they often integrated the musical styles of local cultures. Remember, they already changed the paradigm when it came to music for banning chant.

Actually I’m pretty sure lifeteen masses have absolutely nothing to do with the history of religious orders, St Francis banned chant amongst Franciscans… and? I didn’t say only chant was appropriate, I said this type of music was not. You won’t see me complaining about the organ, polyphonic music or even most hymns, but this sort of sickly sweet nonsense, that I will complain about.

You mention St. Theresa, but what you didn’t mention was that she did play the guitar during liturgical functions. nordskoven and Brother JR have talked about this.

This seems so unlikely that unless hard evidence is shown to substantiate it, I’m going to set it aside. People playing guitars in mass in the 19th century, let alone a saint, is beyond unlikely.

Oh, and we have Requiem Masses, Funeral Masses, Wedding Masses, Masses at Schools, Confirmation Masses, Masses with Baptisms, Masses for Remembrance for the Faithfully Departed. We have Eucharistic Prayers and other Prayers for specific scenarios. We have 20+ rights, and several different uses. Case and point; the Anglican Use, which is a part of the Roman Rite.

Almost all of which are to do with the purpose of the mass and not the people attending. There is difference in kind not in degree between the masses you have listed above (except masses at schools, which if done differently would probably fall under my criticism) and youthmasses and lifeteen masses. Because of that difference in kind, they do not fall under my criticism. Far be it for me to criticise the diversity of rites or the types of mass but creating masses for different types of people, thats an entirely different question altogether. If we have lifeteen masses, why not masses for elderly people, masses for people with different musical tastes, masses for different cultures (which already happens in some places), masses for different genders, masses for middle aged people? The mass is centered around God not man and changing masses for personal taste or classes of people is fundamentally wrong as it centers the mass around man.

 

[jam070406]

There are a few things I find disturbing in these Traditional threads.

One is how people who have little, if any, taste for Traditional worship spend so much time in the Traditional forum giving grief to those that have a deep passion for Traditional worship.

And two, older people that refuse to listen to young people and what they are thirsting for, but continue to cram modern, contemporary worship down their throats.

 

[Melchior_1]

No, what you probably got was people pointing out the obvious fact that liturgical abuses are more common nowadays than they were in the past.

It only seems obvious due to increased exposure. You have today’s technology in the 30’s or 40’s and you could still catch several abuses.

And? The history of the last 50 years of the church suffices to show the things that people can get away with, with Rome saying nothing or doing very little. That does not however make it right, even if Rome approved it, I could still disagree unless it is going to speak infallibly (unlikely, indeed its questionable whether this even comes under the ambit of infallibility) or authoritatively (more likely than speaking ex cathedra but still quite unlikely).

Welcome to the last 2000 years of the Church my friend. This has always happened, it isn’t just limited to the last 50 years.

Actually I’m pretty sure lifeteen masses have absolutely nothing to do with the history of religious orders, St Francis banned chant amongst Franciscans… and? I didn’t say only chant was appropriate, I said this type of music was not. You won’t see me complaining about the organ, polyphonic music or even most hymns, but this sort of sickly sweet nonsense, that I will complain about.

Some of what started with religous orders has made it’s way into the Church as a whole. Look no further than the Tridentine as an example, it was largely shaped and influenced by Franciscans and Benedictines.

This seems so unlikely that unless hard evidence is shown to substantiate it, I’m going to set it aside. People playing guitars in mass in the 19th century, let alone a saint, is beyond unlikely.

What would be hard evidence, exactly? This post and this post talk about it.

Far be it for me to criticise the diversity of rites or the types of mass but creating masses for different types of people, thats an entirely different question altogether.

You contradicted yourself. The Masses of the other Rites were done largely to accommodate for culture, which is a “man” thing. As is the Anglican Use.

We’re obviously going to disagree on this, so perhaps we should either take this to private messages or stop where we’re at so the thread doesn’t get locked.

 

[Melchior_1]

There are a few things I find disturbing in these Traditional threads.

One is how people who have little, if any, taste for Traditional worship spend so much time in the Traditional forum giving grief to those that have a deep passion for Traditional worship.

And two, older people that refuse to listen to young people and what they are thirsting for, but continue to cram modern, contemporary worship down their throats.

People visit this forum because they have an interest in Catholic traditions in several forms. There’s more to traditions than Latin, chant, and receiving our Lord on the tongue. Personally, I find the dialogues that happen here enriching, and I like seeing where others are coming from. I like learning, and there’s several posts I find here that I can learn a lot from.

You also can’t expect to posts links and comments about things people feel are acceptable and say they are bad, and not expect them to show up. We get that with SSPX folks showing up here from time to time.

Your second point is a bit of a generalization. Unless people who are 20 - 30 “older people”. In which if that’s the case, I’m a bit sad that I should be in my mid-life crisis and haven’t had it yet (and that apparently I’ll be dying sooner rather than later due to the “old age”).

 

[jmj1984]

It only seems obvious due to increased exposure. You have today’s technology in the 30’s or 40’s and you could still catch several abuses.

This is a cop out, ‘Well we didn’t have the technology then so…’, its based on hypotheticals and not facts. The facts are that abuse is more widespread now than it has been for a very, very long time, research, the holy office, papal addresses, theologians etc… can all serve to confirm this.

Welcome to the last 2000 years of the Church my friend. This has always happened, it isn’t just limited to the last 50 years.

Again not to the extent it was today.

Some of what started with religous orders has made it’s way into the Church as a whole. Look no further than the Tridentine as an example, it was largely shaped and influenced by Franciscans and Benedictines.

Very questionable, it was shaped and influenced by many many different people and cultures and councils over centuries.

What would be hard evidence, exactly? This post and this post talk about it.

They don’t talk about being used in mass, they also talk about St theresa of Avila NOT St theresa of Liseux and they don’t substantiate what is said. However as they are not talking about mass specifically thats sufficient to make them irrelevant.

You contradicted yourself. The Masses of the other Rites were done largely to accommodate for culture, which is a “man” thing. As is the Anglican Use.

We’re obviously going to disagree on this, so perhaps we should either take this to private messages or stop where we’re at so the thread doesn’t get locked.

Those masses distinguishing features however were not ‘This is a youth massThis is a mass for children’, they were focused on God and not man, as I said there are differences in kind not just in type. They were more specifically focused on the different ways to worship God, not the fact that certain people didn’t appreciate x type of music or x people would get bored and leave otherwise. Besides which the rites developed over centuries, slowly and organically not overnight or even over 10 or 20 years. There is no comparision between them and youth masses.

And yes if you want to continue it you can do it by PM or start another thread.

 

[I_Thirst]

Here’s an interesting twist on ad orientum. At my local RCC (Novus Ordo), the priest faces the people, as you’d expect – but when he does so, he faces east.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Here’s an interesting twist on ad orientum. At my local RCC (Novus Ordo), the priest faces the people, as you’d expect – but when he does so, he faces east.

Try ad ipsidem at that church.

 

[connorkeef]

From what I understand, Bishop Slattery of Tulsa, OK does an OF ad orientem

Yes, I am certain that he does do Ad Orientem masses. Not all of them all but most. He also encourages all of his priests to put a crucifix on the altar.

 

[Sirach2]

jam070406:

There are a few things I find disturbing in these Traditional threads.

One is how people who have little, if any, taste for Traditional worship spend so much time in the Traditional forum giving grief to those that have a deep passion for Traditional worship.

And two, older people that refuse to listen to young people and what they are thirsting for, but continue to cram modern, contemporary worship down their throats.

(1) It might help to review Moderator Casey’s post which is quite recent.

Please read Good Subjects for TC Thread

TC Forum does not exist “to discuss the love for the old mass.” TC Forum exists to discuss Catholic Tradition(s), of which the EF is one of many.

Traditionalists have no more claim on the TC Forum than Mainstream Catholics have on Apologetics. Every forum has an area. Posters are free to use all of them, as long as they remain within the subject area of that forum.

(2) Read post above again, and then consider that there is ALSO an equal or greater amount of young people who are not in the same class of wanting the TLM.
It is comical to imagine that “older people” are cramming this down their throats. Really!?? Haven’t you seen an equal or greater amount of posts from “older people” who dislike contemporary worship?

 

[I_Thirst]

Try ad ipsidem at that church.

I have small Latin and less Greek, so I don’t know what you mean. Translate, please?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I have small Latin and less Greek, so I don’t know what you mean. Translate, please?

Facing towards the apse, that is, towards the wall, rather than towards the people. It is a broader term than ad orientem because it includes those instances where church pews are not built facing East.

 

[I_Thirst]

Facing towards the apse, that is, towards the wall, rather than towards the people. It is a broader term than ad orientem because it includes those instances where church pews are not built facing East.

I don’t think that RCC has an apse, for it was built in the 1970s. When the priest faces east, he faces the glass doors that look out into the parking lot. It looks like a Protestant Church (and sounds like one too with those liturgical bongos ahem). Just recently got a crucifix, tabernacle is in another room, etc.

But I like it. Ad ispidem it is!

 

[ChristPax]

Paul11b,

I realize this was posted sometime ago, but not sure how far out you are trying to reach from Washington, D.C.-- St. Rita’s Catholic Church in Alexandria, VA celebrate Ad Orientem Novus Ordo at 11AM every Sunday. I hope this helps!

Peace.

 

[OurBeloved]

“Life Teen Masses” aren’t any different than any OF Mass, they simply have different music and occasionally will encourage kids to sit in the first few pews.

Have there been questionable practices? Sure, you can probably find some on Youtube. Of course, the lack of Youtube on abuses pre-1962 isn’t there because mini-cameras weren’t around then. I find the assumption that there wee no abuses pre-1962 to be a laughable one.

The other funny thing is the same people who say “no screens, no technology, no anything like that” during Mass will just as easily use a Youtube clip from Mass to prove a point, which meant someone had to have had a camera in there, and possibly the whole reason they were at Mass was to video tape waiting for something bad to happen.

Life Teen is approved by Rome. You can find all about them on their website. I’ve been volunteering at a Life Teen program for eight years, and I haven’t seen anything disastrous. I have seen plenty if obedience to the Holy See, as they at on point informed Life Teen that a certain practice would have to be stopped. A communique went out quickly, and the practice was swiftly removed.

This is much better than I can say than some members and Societies within the Church who don’t listen to Rome or local ordinaries.

I personally think “Lifeteen” masses, which I just saw on the video, are part of the problem in our faith crisis today.

Rather than make people understand that Faith is about commitment and sacredness, we turn it in to an entertainment session that appeals to the emotions. The key idea seems to be, if you are not entertained, just change it or consult your pastor about making it entertaining.

Now I am sure this is church approved. But I think there is good reason to think that the whole idea is ridiculous and one of those really bad moves like choosing to keep sex abuse cases confined in the past.

If we really consider this situation, it is clear that we are just feeding the appetite of the younger generation to be entertained. I think that benefits nobody and leads to loss of faith in the long term (when the mass is not entertaining enough).

So the point is really not about what leads or does not lead to liturgical abuse. Rather, the point is about the weakly thought out concepts behind the construction of such practices. The idea was probably “lets just appeal to the youth in anyways possible and get them in the pews”. The problem missed was that it reduces mass to entertainment and feeds the appetite of the youth to seek entertainment and emotional satisfaction in all things rather than pursue spirituality for its own sake.

 

[TempleServant]

That misic is neither good pop or good liturgical music. Good pop would sound wild in a Catholic Church but chant might put off ‘The Yooth’ (or so the organisers think).

So you get a dull compromise.