Adam and Eve questions

[AlruwhAlquds]

I can’t help but feel that it sounds like (at least to me) that God was too hard on Adam and Eve. I read about His love for them but yet they were so naive. Because of this naive couple, their children and children’s children and etc. - we, are forced to live outside the Garden no matter how holy we try to live our lives. Yes, I know, God said he would send the Son of Man, God would humble himself to become one of us and die for us all, he would create the new Eve (the blessed Mother) generations later. So, does this make the Garden, heaven? And for the sake of argument, why put the tree there? Was the scene too perfect?

In Genesis, God banished Adam and Eve out, there was no chance to forgive. There was no reconciliation, no penance or anything. I know, God clothed them and said He would still “be with them.” But from a distance with added work and stress (till the ground, child birth pains etc.). Was this act to show Satan that God means business and plays by the rules He set because there would be no forgiveness for satan/lucifer? That kinda makes sense. I need to hear more, please and thank you.

PS: Don’t get me wrong. I’m Roman Catholic, now and forever. I just have some questions.

PSS: Yes, the tree might have been the for the whole “free will” thing and to love Him for Him. I understand that, but the main point of my question is that they are like little children and we teach little children right from wrong. There was no teaching moment for them it was straight to work camp for Adam and Eve.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Where are we taught that our first parents were naive?
Dictionary defines as: (of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.

These two people walked with God. They were created by God, by wisdom Himself, they were wiser than the smartest person you know today.

In Genesis, God banished Adam and Eve out, there was no chance to forgive. There was no reconciliation, no penance or anything.

God did not kill them. He, in His mercy, allowed them to live, to continue to worship Him, to have life.

Satan already knows that He has rejected God and has not the ability to desire reconciliation. Angels are not humans.

 

[AlruwhAlquds]

I never read that they were wiser than the smartest person today. I assumed that since they had no knowledge of good and evil, that implied they were naive. They didn’t have knowledge enough to not reply to a talking snake. Adam knew all the animals as God commanded him, yet he didn’t know to not listen to a snake? This is why it seems naive. The picture is always painted that Adam and Eve were like God’s children. But we are supposed to teach children who are born without sin. The point is there was no teaching moment for them, just strike one, you’re out (of the garden).

 

[MariaRita5]

We have to remember that Adam and Eve were created perfect. That means they had no hindrances to their intellectual faculties whatsoever. They were not children in the sense that five year olds are. Their reason was unimpeded. They didn’t need to be taught anything. They knew better.

That being said, these two perfect beings, when faced with the serpent, freely chose against God’s will. Eve, rather than turning immediately to God, decided to dialogue with the serpent. She made an initial choice to trust herself rather than trust God. Adam was there with Eve, and he knew God’s command. He did nothing to stop his wife from conversing with the serpent. He let her enter into temptation rather than leading her away. He failed in his duty. Eve, knowing God’s commandment, decided to believe the serpent over God and eat the fruit. Adam ate the fruit when Eve gave it to him, knowing God commanded them not to eat it.

They died spiritually, but God allowed them to still live on Earth. God is merciful. His punishment was a response to their selfishness, meant to teach them about self-sacrifice. Adam would have to sacrifice his body to provide for his family. Eve would have to sacrifice her body for their children.

 

[TheLittleLady]

They didn’t have knowledge enough to not reply to a talking snake. Adam knew all the animals as God commanded him, yet he didn’t know to not listen to a snake? This is why it seems naive.

We need to understand that both creation accounts in Genesis are written in a many layered style. there is no Catholic teaching that there was a literal class Reptilia and order Squamata (scaled reptiles) suborders Serpentes speaking to our first parents.

I know that we still call persons who do sneaky evil things “snakes”, so, this figure of speech is part of our modern world.

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

I don’t know about the “smarter than anyone on earth” or the “naive” qualities, that seems to me reaching too far. However, it is interesting that God never says “you shall not even touch it” as eve described the fruit when pressured by Satan. Satan, as our individual experience will attest haha, is really good at closing the gap of temptation and then just leaving you with the choice.

All that being said, God knew what would happen from the beginning, and this could have been avoided if not for the Rebellion in Heaven. God uses that and the fall of Adam and Eve for a greater good. I would argue, though I would have to resort to private revelation (Mystical City of God - Mary of Agreda), that Adam and Eve may have been in a perfected state, BUT they didn’t possess the Beatific Vision. But now since they have been cast out and have to strive for Heaven they are now granted access to the Beatific Vision.

It should also be noted that according to the same private revelation the Angels (yes all of them) didn’t have the beatific vision and were shown a glimpse of God’s plan which is described in Revelation 12. This is why they have a rebellion and some fight for Satan and others God. After which those that chose evil are cast to the earth like lightening as our Lord says in Luke 10:18, and the others that chose good are granted the beatific vision and cannot fall anymore.

In short: the fall had to happen to allow the human race to experience the Beatific Vision just our Lord and Lady do.

 

[Kei]

Adam and Eve are traditionally celebrated as saints and have an optional feast day right before Christmas.
So, there was forgiveness.
But you must remember they were very close to God. Mankind didn’t fall from Eve, but from Adam’s sin. Adam was the one directly told by God of the mandate. I think this can be an important detail. He seemed very close to God.

But you must also remember that they didn’t have concupiscence, so they had less “excuse” for such sin.

 

[Wesrock]

Adam and Eve acted on their temptations out of pride, not ignorance. They also had the opportunity to repent when confronted by God. Instead Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the snake when they could have accepted responsibility. Keep in mind God already knew who did what – he’s omniscient. He gave them the opportunity to be upfront about it.

We don’t approach the Bible as a plain text. There’s a lot of exegesis and understanding that much of the written word in it was not everything to be said about it.

 

[AlruwhAlquds]

This says a lot, thank you. This changes things from the way it was painted for me, that Adam/Eve acted out of pride and blamed rather than confess. I’ll have to Genesis again but both did admit why they ate of it. But if you think about Adam/Eve acting out of pride it makes more sense now to have that punishment. I know we don’t approach the Bible in plain text. But sometimes when I am searching for an answer to life and go to the Bible, it helps to understand more clearly. There is a lot said in the bible and sometimes in old school Catechism that makes it seem like the Bible contradicts itself for someone who never had a strong foundation.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

God created Adam and Eve perfect plus He gave them what are called the “preternatural gifts” - infused knowledge, integrity, immortality (there’s one more but can’t remember it right now). Most of all, God gave them His own Divine Life, i.e. sanctifying grace. They walked with God in the garden and were on intimate terms with Him.

Infused knowledge means they knew everything necessary for life here on earth.

Integrity - Their reason controlled their wills. If you had been in the garden and tempted them with dessert (e.g. cheesecake) they would have said no. Why? I don’t need cheesecake now .

Immortality - Adam and Eve were free from sickness, old age and death.

When Adam & Eve sinned, they lost not only sanctifying grace, the Divine Life of God, but also the preternatural gifts. Infused knowledge? Now we are ignorant and have to learn everything. Integrity? St. Paul writes in Romans 7 about the war between “law of God” and “the law in my members” in his soul. Immortality? If they had obeyed God we probably wouldn’t be going through this world wide crisis right now, where many people especially the elderly are either sick or dying.

Most of all, Adam and Eve lost the Divine Life of God, sanctifying grace. They were “BFF” with Him but now no more.

God promised them a Redeemer (Gen. 3:15):

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

[15] “She shall crush”: Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

So God preserved Our Lady free from original sin so she would be the worthy Mother of His Son, Who would redeem mankind.

 

[Latin]

THE TEACHINGS OF THE “MILK FOOD” AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE “SOLID FOOD.”

1 Cor. 3:2 : Explains the “Milk food” and the “Solid food:”
I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready for it.
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New Christians/ Catholics included, are not ready to receive the highest level teachings of the Church, like the teachings of the Catholic Encyclopedias or the teachings of the Catholic Theologians, etc. – Unless of course, if a theologian teaches “Milk Theology, not Solid Food Theology.”

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A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE TEACHINGS OF “MILK FOOD” WHAT THE NEW CATHOLICS/ CHRISTIANS ABLE TO COMPREHEND.

CCC 390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language …

Figurative language:
Synonyms: Non literal, symbolic, imaginative, poetic, etc.
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In the figurative language, Adam & Eve responsible for their “fall.”

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ACCORDING TO THE “SOLID FOOD” TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH, GOD DESIGNED, DECREED, FOREORDAINED AND CAUSED THE “FALL.”
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FOR EXAMPLE
Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin.

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THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII, 115-24. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
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God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe.
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Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[OddBird]

Yes, as @Wesrock pointed out, there is a lot of finger-pointing going on, and some even, indirectly, at God. Adam says “it isn’t me, it’s the woman that you gave me…”

 

[Latin]

Keep in mind God already knew who did what – he’s omniscient.

I agree, God is omniscient and He knows every event what happen or will happen in the Universe in different ways, one way He knows as follows:

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
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As God Himself operates in our wills, we don’t even have to know we are FREELY cooperating with His will.

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AS WE SEE ABOVE, THE CHURCH DOGMATICALLY TEACHES.

CCC 2022; The divine initiative (supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul) in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

We freely will what God wills us to will, and we freely do what God wills as to do.

As God himself operates in our wills, we are freely cooperating with His graces, without even knowing it.

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ANOTHER WAY HE KNOWS EVERY EVENT HAPPENING OR WILL HAPPEN IN THE UNIVERSE

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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God bless

 

[fhansen]

There’s a very basic, bottom-line message to be found in Genesis-that carries through the Bible to Revelation. Man cannot be whole, happy, alive, fully who he was created to be, without loving fellowship with his Creator, without loving God with His whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, to put it simply. As the catechism teaches, unless and until he freely binds himself to God, man is far from home, whether he realizes it or not, and will suffer. Man was made for communion with God and his perfection is unobtained until that potential is fully realized.

Here in this relatively Godless world now we can experience first-hand the consequences of autonomy from God; we literally know good and evil here, and can learn, over time with the help of revelation and grace, to identify and ultimately choose between the two. God wants us to grow in wisdom, to align our wills with His perfect will, but won’t force that issue as our own state of justice requires that we freely choose the light for ourselves. He wants great things from, and for, us. He’s been patiently cultivating and working with man for centuries to bring about something very good, even from the evil that the Fall resulted in. Consider another Church teaching which looks at this matter from a broad perspective: God made His world “en statu viae”, “in a state of journeying”, to perfection.