Adam and Eve, sin, etc

[Kmon23]

Based on the initial condition stated in the title… here are my questions

1. Adam and Eve had bodily immortality. As part of God’s plan if they had not sinned, then were they meant to live in the Garden of Eden forever? Would heaven then NOT be the final destination for mankind without original sin?
2. If anyone else down the line of Adam and Eve sinned, then I assume any of his/her offspring would have original sin. In this case Jesus would have come to allow for the salvation of those with original sin. They can die and have salvation and take part in the beatific vision. However, what about those whose descendants did not inherit original sin? Would they not be able to partake in the beatific vision because they cannot die (contingent on first question I guess).
3. Was Jesus (and Mary) technically immortal if they were to live out their natural lives as they did not have original sin?
4. Does the Assumption of Mary not clarify as to whether Mary had a death or not? I read on wikipedia and other forums, and there seems to be disagreement on the matter.

 

[cfauster]

Here is a convenient compilation of official and other statements from Church officials re. creation:

conservation.catholic.org/magisterium_is_concerned_with_qu.htm

 

[edwest2]

Based on the initial condition stated in the title… here are my questions

1. Adam and Eve had bodily immortality. As part of God’s plan if they had not sinned, then were they meant to live in the Garden of Eden forever? Would heaven then NOT be the final destination for mankind without original sin?
2. If anyone else down the line of Adam and Eve sinned, then I assume any of his/her offspring would have original sin. In this case Jesus would have come to allow for the salvation of those with original sin. They can die and have salvation and take part in the beatific vision. However, what about those whose descendants did not inherit original sin? Would they not be able to partake in the beatific vision because they cannot die (contingent on first question I guess).
3. Was Jesus (and Mary) technically immortal if they were to live out their natural lives as they did not have original sin?
4. Does the Assumption of Mary not clarify as to whether Mary had a death or not? I read on wikipedia and other forums, and there seems to be disagreement on the matter.

Where did you hear there were descendants without Original Sin?

Peace,
Ed

 

[Kmon23]

Where did you hear there were descendants without Original Sin?

Peace,
Ed

This is based on a premise of a “what if” Adam and Eve did not sin, and original sin would not have propagated to the rest of humanity. And by my logic, anyone down the line of Adam/Eve that did sin would then inherit original sin from that generation on in that line. However, there would be others that would not have original sin if that person was not an offspring of that line that inherited original sin. It’s just a what if question, because if Adam and Eve did not sin, then Cain and Abel would not have original sin. However, if Cain sinned, then all of his offspring would have original sin. Abel however if he did not sin, would not have original sin in his offspring. In this case scenario, there would be some and some who did not have original sin. It’s based on this premise of “what if” that I am asking this question.

 

[edwest2]

This is based on a premise of a “what if” Adam and Eve did not sin, and original sin would not have propagated to the rest of humanity. And by my logic, anyone down the line of Adam/Eve that did sin would then inherit original sin from that generation on in that line. However, there would be others that would not have original sin if that person was not an offspring of that line that inherited original sin. It’s just a what if question, because if Adam and Eve did not sin, then Cain and Abel would not have original sin. However, if Cain sinned, then all of his offspring would have original sin. Abel however if he did not sin, would not have original sin in his offspring. In this case scenario, there would be some and some who did not have original sin. It’s based on this premise of “what if” that I am asking this question.

That question was answered a while ago in Humani Generis:

“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

There is no, what if.

biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[Kmon23]

That question was answered a while ago in Humani Generis:

“37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]”

There is no, what if.

biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm

Peace,
Ed

Yes, I have read this. In terms of what if, I am not stating that this is truth in any way. It’s just speculation on the state of the world if it occurred in any other way (namely if the serpent failed to convince Eve to sin).
However, I guess it is true that there is no “what if” since God knows everything and would have anticipated the fall of man, and hence there is no point in asking a “what if” question because that is not God’s plan as he already knew about the fall of man? Is this what you meant?

 

[opusAquinas]

If Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have lived their earthly life until such time they would have been assumed into heaven or they would have been immortal on earth. But oh happy accident! We will become like gods.

 

[Kmon23]

If Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have lived their earthly life until such time they would have been assumed into heaven or they would have been immortal on earth. But oh happy accident! We will become like gods.

I guess this is my question. Will we be assumed into heaven/die, or will we be immortal on earth?

 

[grannymh]

Based on the initial condition stated in the title… here are my questions

1. Adam and Eve had bodily immortality. As part of God’s plan if they had not sinned, then were they meant to live in the Garden of Eden forever? Would heaven then NOT be the final destination for mankind without original sin?

It would be easier to answer these questions, if you would kindly tell me your understanding of Original Sin.

1. If anyone else down the line of Adam and Eve sinned, then I assume any of his/her offspring would have original sin. In this case Jesus would have come to allow for the salvation of those with original sin. They can die and have salvation and take part in the beatific vision. However, what about those whose descendants did not inherit original sin? Would they not be able to partake in the beatific vision because they cannot die (contingent on first question I guess).

The name Original Sin refers to the fact that the Original first human Adam committed it. Any descendant of Adam and Eve would not be the Original first human.

1. Was Jesus (and Mary) technically immortal if they were to live out their natural lives as they did not have original sin?

Jesus Christ is True God. Mary was a mortal human being.

1. Does the Assumption of Mary not clarify as to whether Mary had a death or not? I read on wikipedia and other forums, and there seems to be disagreement on the matter.

The Assumption of Mary is fact. It is not necessary to specify how it happened.

 

[Kmon23]

It would be easier to answer these questions, if you would kindly tell me your understanding of Original Sin.

The name Original Sin refers to the fact that the Original first human Adam committed it. Any descendant of Adam and Eve would not be the Original first human.

Jesus Christ is True God. Mary was a mortal human being.

The Assumption of Mary is fact. It is not necessary to specify how it happened.

By original sin, I am referring to the fall of man (Adam’s sin that caused mankind to inherit the stain of sin I believe how people describe it). I ask this question because I’ve read something called the prenatural gifts that man had before original sin/fall of man came into being/existence. (found this in a different forum)

1. Immortality.
2. Impassibility
3. Freedom from concupiscence, ignorance, sin
4. Lordship over the earth

Because one of the gifts Adam and Eve had were bodily immortality, I ask as to what was their intended final destination if they had not sinned, because without death, they wouldn’t be able to have the beatific vision like saints today after they die (unless they would be assumed into heaven if their time came?).

The second question is just speculation as to what would happen if Adam and Eve didn’t sin but someone else down the line did.

As to question 3, I ask this because the Immaculate Consumption of Mary says Mary was without original sin, so she would have the prenatural gifts such as immortality? (although I read recently somewhere that with Christ’s death, she also partook in that death hence why she was assumed into heaven and did not live forever). As to Jesus being God, that is a given, but just making sure on whether the prenatural gifts did apply to Jesus if He were to have lived out His life.

As to the final question, I do not question the dogma of the Church. I was just curious to the details of the dogma since the dogma itself doesn’t clarify on this detail whether she experienced death before the assumption or no death at all. On wiki (I know, far from a reliable source), it says that it is open to either possibility. However, I was wondering as to whether the Church teaches or accepts more one way or the other.

 

[wmw]

Let me cut to the chase in one respect. Heaven is nobody’s final destination. We are promised a new heaven and a new earth where our fully united spritual and glorified material bodies will dwell with Christ.