Adam and Eve

[tdandh26]

I was just thinking about Genesis and was pondering the exile of Cain. When a thought occured to me that sort of makes sense, but I am in doubt as to what the Church might have to say on this idea. So here it goes.

Is it possible that Adam and Eve had children prior to the fall? From the first story of creation, God immediately tells them to go and subdue the earth. Could it be that their children did go forth from the garden and began to dwell upon the earth? There is no time given between creation and the fall. Is it possible that it could have been thousands of years? What if the age of Adam given in the Bible is the age from the fall to his death? There would have been no reason to record any of the occurances between the creation and the fall in detail since that would not pertain to our salvation, not to mention the glories of paradise are not for the wicked.
I then thought what about all the children which Adam and Eve could have had if that had been the case, why would they have had to pay for the sin of Adam, but it could be that since Adam and Eve were the source and if they had sinned then all incured the punishment due to the strict Justice of God. This would explain why Cain would have been afraid that others would have killed him. It would also help in understanding how many nations could have sprung up so suddenly. It also might explain why human history seems to be older than the 6,000 or so years the Bible seems to suggest.

I am not saying this is the case it was just a thought, although a lot more than this went through my mind in pondering this, I think this will suffice to get an opinion on it. I am a strong Catholic and am totally submissive to the authority of the Church and I do not want to maintain any ideas that would offend Holy Mother Church, so that is why I am asking this.

 

[masterjedi747]

tdandh26:

Is it possible that Adam and Eve had children prior to the fall?

I’m 99.9% sure that the answer is NO, but I don’t have the sources to back that up right now. But personally, I might even wager that the Fall happened BEFORE Adam and Eve were even old enough to actually have children. However, we do know that they had many other children AFTER the fall, and I don’t think it’s certain that Cain and Abel were their first by any means.

tdandh26:

This would explain why Cain would have been afraid that others would have killed him.

Or perhaps he was simply afraid that “others” would kill him because all of those “others” were actually his older brothers and/or sisters, and their families. That makes sense, does it not?

tdandh26:

It would also help in understanding how many nations could have sprung up so suddenly.

Who said that it had to have happened that suddenly? I (for one) very much doubt that it did.

tdandh26:

It also might explain why human history seems to be older than the 6,000 or so years the Bible seems to suggest.

Again, why 6,000 years? Genesis does not HAVE to be taken literally word-for-word. You are allowed to find a flexible translation. If human history appears to be much older than 6,000 years, then that’s probably because IT IS. The Bible in not a history/science textbook…it is a presentation of our Salvation history. Not all names are included (especially if they are insignificant) and the numbers used can often carry a symbolic (as opposed to literal) meaning.

 

[tdandh26]

I agree with all your responses. Your response at the end is exactly the response I usually give when answering people who question the Bible based on science and Genesis.

It was just a thought that had occured to me for some reason. It was an interesting thought, and I just thought I would ask some of the more knowledgeable individuals here for their opinion on it. I would never try to use this as an explaination in defense of creation or the Bible. I do think that everyone should understand that the Bible is not an exact history as much as it is for our spiritual growth in Gods love.

 

[Crumpy]

I have a hard time following your original post. Although your question seemed to evolve in some stream of consciousness, you’d help us out if you sorted it out a bit.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says the account of creation in Genesis is written in a symbolic way, although it asserts that it tells a story that happened in pre-historic times.

Perhaps you are looking for a sequel to Genesis, in which all these details are worked out. But, Genesis is a writing that strives to tell us who we are and where we came from. It tells us a lot of things that we take as religious truths.

In Genesis Chapter One, presumably only God exists. So, who is the narrator that is telling us the story? And, where is he standing? The account of early mankind was written long after the events had occurred and “Adam” means “man” or “first man”. It is not meant to be a proper name.

I’ve just finished a book called Path to Freedom by Fr. Jean Corbon. It is a “spiritual” exegesis of scripture. It doesn’t get bogged down in details whatsoever. It suggests that the early books of the Bible were written around the time of the Babylonian exile and reflect a deep synthesis of the Jewish history to that time.

To put it another way, try looking at scripture from a spiritual perspective, and not just a historical-critical way (that’s what we’re supposed to do). H-C can be a very destructive and misleading method to apply to scripture.

Corbon suggests that the first chapter of Genesis is a song, the second chapter a poem, and the third chapter a love story (if I remember correctly). Can’t just read Genesis like the box scores on the sports page.

 

[tdandh26]

Thank you for your response, I do appreciate it.

I have read the Bible many times. I was not asking to try and find out some hidden meaning. It was just a thought that had occured to me and I sort of wanted to know if it is ok to think along those lines or not. I dont believe necessarily that what I thought has any basis of truth.

I know that the Bible is not a lesson on history and I do know how to read it spiritualy. I have many books on that subject. I completely submit to the authority of the Church and I do not suppose that I in some way have had some sort of revelation. Again it was was just a thought and I just want to know if it has any plausability to it or not.

Thanks again, God Bless

 

[Crumpy]

The spiritual “sense” of scripture (also see the Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 117) refers to how things that are written refer to other things.

On the road to Emmaus, our Lord appeared to two disciples and as they walked along He explained all the places in scripture (OT) that referred to Him – that’s an example of the spiritual sense.

I seem to recall that the book of Hebrews makes a comparison of Adam and Jesus with Jesus as the second “Adam”. Jesus is pre-figured in Adam.

Abel is called fhe first priest because he offered an animal as a burnt offering to God.

Moses, Jonah, and Job all represent Christ in some ways.

salvationhistory.com/ is a website that gives recommendations about studying the spiritual sense of scripture.

 

[mich2]

I believe that you have brought up some interesting points, tdanh26.I don’t think that we need to be afraid in asking questions,and we certainly are allowed to do so.Could Adam and Eve brought forth children while they were still living in God’s Paradise? Certainly; however, we don’t have proof they did. Nevertheless, there are scriptural references which might indeed “support” your hypotheses. God said to Eve “I will increase your pains in childbearing”. Such a statement supports what you believe; the scriptures also speak of, as you mentioned, Cain being afraid of persecution after he killed his brother Abel. I have a hard time accepting such people to be simply Cain’s “other” brothers and sisters, since, after Abel died, it is written "Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth.“Only later,we are told they had other sons and daughters.
Another intersesting point, lies in the reference of Adam being created “before there were any shrub of the fields and plants…” which does not seem to indicate that he was created on the sixth Day, but rather on the second Day, or even the first.In this,a two different humanities may be identified; one from Adam, and the other, could hypothetically be from the evolved humans.
How long was Adam and Eve in Paradise (heaven) before the Fall? No one knows, and since Adam and Eve were not created as infants growing into children, and finally into a man and women, no time span can even be hinted. Also, until they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were in heaven, their lives being sustained by God. They could have been in Paradise for as long as any good theory can hold.
As for the seven day creation,let us remember the Jews had knowledge of something that Peter wrote in his epistle;” “a day for the Lord is like a thousand years”.According to Jewish litterature, the time existing between Adam(the Fall of Humanity)) and the “end of the world” consists of 6 thousand years.

ou.org/pardes/here.htm

The Jewish timeline has a beginning and an end. Generation after generation we walk this line not to create a future, but rather to explore and discover that which already lies before us. The sages of the Talmud have taught us that the world in which we live will last 6,000 years. (We are now in the year 5760.)

Peter,in his epistle, writes to the church concerning the “coming of Christ”. He said that Jesus was not slow in coming, and that they certainly were living in the last “days” (plurial), but that " a Day was as a thousand years for the Lord. Hence, comes the belief that we are now living in the last days.Certainly, this is all speculations, however, it seems odd to me that
we are living during times never witnessed before, where man has the capacity to destroy this planet, something predicted by the prophets.
Therefore, if Peter meant the statement to be taken litterally, let us continue. “…and a thousand years, are like unto a Day”. What would a thousand years of the former definition of the day used by Peter ( 1 day=1000 years) be equalled to? and let “this” be equal to a “Genesis Day”. 364,000 years * 1,000 years = 364,000,000 years = 1 Genesis Day.If a Genesis Day can be identified as being equal to 364 million years, then, according to such an hypothesis, it then comes to agree fairly close to the scientific theory of evolution although still having some differences.

I will send a “part 2” as it will be a fairly long post.

Andre

 

[mich2]

PART 2

Genesis Day equalled to 364 million years, theory.

6th Genesis Day
This would represent a period between 364 million years ago till now, if we claim the 7th Genesis Day to coincide with the Lord’s day (millinium).

THE CARBONIFEROUS PERIOD (about 360 to 290 million years ago)
The main phase of evolution for the tetrapods occurred during the Carboniferous…
According to paleontology, mammals evolved during the Triassic period, about 225 million years ago.

This fits the scriptures as the land animals are said to have been created on the sixth day (360 million years).Within this day Mammals (animals, not creatures) appeared, and then, early man.

The fifth Genesis Day

5 Day - 720-360million years

According to Genesis,fishes and birds seem to have existed during the 5th Day, between 720 million years and 360 million years. The oldest fish fossils observed are 530 million years old.A problem however is to be found as the oldest bird fossil which,up to this point is the Archaeopteryx (approximately 150 million years old) only.

The 4th Genesis Day

-1.08 billion - 720 million years (the appearance of the sun and the moon) due to an atmosphere similar to ours.

servercc.oakton.edu/~billtong/eas100/oceans.htm

At some time about 1.8 billion years ago, the algae bloomed (multiplied in great numbers) in the oceans, giving off so much excess oxygen that it could not longer be contained in the oceans, and it escaped into the atmosphere.

The “blooming of algaes” due to increased photosynthesis 1.8 billion years ago could support the appearance of visible light.

The 3rd and 2nd Genesis Day

( 1.8 billion years - 1.08 billion years)

water condenses and collect on land, creating seas and continents.Latter, first land vegetation is created

servercc.oakton.edu/~billtong/eas100/oceans.htm

the Earth began to cool, and the crust began to stabilize by about 3.8 billion years ago. As the Earth cooled, the steam condensed into liquid water, which began to collect in basins and low areas to form the first oceans.

also
science.siu.edu/microbiology/micr425/425Notes/14-OriginLife.html

The Primitive Hydrosphere

Most of the present ocean water (possible up to 90%) derives from outgassing by volcanic activity, hot springs, etc. the primitive earth thus had much less surface water. During the first few hundred million years of the Earth’s existence, the water was in the form of stream, condensing later as the Earth cooled off.

Here, while the event seems to agree with the Genesis story, the
time period does not.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution

1.2 billion years. A Sexual reproduction evolves and leads to faster evolution [5]. While most life occurs in oceans and lakes, some cyanobacteria may already live in moist soil by this time.

However, the first land plant life seems to agree with the time period of Genesis.

The 1st Genesis Day

(2.16 billion years - 1.8 billion years)

The earth is void and formless; Spirit comes upon the waters and God said “let there be light”. Spirit and water gives life, John speaks of the Light as being the Life of God.The light being electromagnetic waves from the sun and from
within the earth… not visible light.

resa.net/nasa/origins_life.htm
A group at the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at the University of California, San Diego, exposed sulfur-bearing molecules like those thought to have been present before the Earth formed to low levels of light. The presence of the light was enough to generate organic compounds - molecules containing carbon, which form the chemical basis of life as we know it

servercc.oakton.edu/~billtong/eas100/oceans.htm

When the Earth was just formed, a period of intense bombardment by comets, meteorites, and asteroids (known collectively as planetesimals) occurred for a period of hundreds of millions of years. The tremendous heat generated by these impacts probably kept the Earth’s surface molten, as the planetesimals were absorbed by and mixed into the molten Earth. Eventually, the sheer number of incoming planetesimals was reduced through absorption by the Earth and other planets, and volcanism brought steam to the surface; the Earth began to cool, and the crust began to stabilize by about 3.8 billion years ago. As the Earth cooled, the steam condensed into liquid water, which began to collect in basins and low areas to form the first oceans. There may have been tremendous rain storms that lasted for hundreds or even thousands of years in order to fill the ocean basins.

Andre