Adam's fall/age of the universe

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Mr.Ruggerio

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Just wondering what others thought about this—

The Cathecism calls man’s fall (the original sin) a “primeval event” that took place at the beginning of the history of man.

Assuming you believe that the universe is about 12 billion years old and that man did not appear on the scene until about the last 100,000 years or so (ignore the evolution versus creation debate), then given the account of the fall of man in Genesis, doesn’t that mean all of creation has been in a state of “paradise” or uncursed, except only for the very last 1/12,000 of the universe’s age? The time since the fall represents a mere fraction of the age of the universe.

Scientists already know much about the nature of the universe looking back billions of year. The photographs of the universe looking back in time are remarkable and beautiful.

What does the fact that the vast majority of the universe’s time (time we now see through our scientific instruments) occurred prior to the fall say about the nature of the fall. Isn’t this in accord with the acount in Genesis, in which man did not appear on the scene until late in the sixth day? Did creation itself change radically only 100,00 years ago and if so has science found evidence of some such change in its studies of the universe?

Also, does the beauty of the photographs of deep space, looking back millions, even billions, of years prior to the fall, give us some hint of the beauty we lost as a result of the fall?

Just a thought. Looking for feedback.
 
When man fell, the only thing that fell…was man.

The rest of material creation remained the same objectively, it only subjectively could be said to fall because its purpose (man) had fallen and so it relatively lost some of its glory (serving fallen man is not as good as serving glorified man)

But before the fall of man, animals and plants went about their lives breeding and dying, matter followed its laws as it did today. Nature did not “change” at the fall. Only man did.

All that fell about nature was its End…namely man. But things were pretty much the same as regards matter and life…except man was glorified.
 
Mr. Ruggerio,

I think that most of what you will get on this subject is speculation. I can tell you solidly, though, that the rest of creation also fell. It’s in Romans 8:20-22.

While the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy books are not usually considered a good source for philosophy, there is a concept in the last one that I find intriguing. It is called “reverse temporal engineering.” In the book, it is the idea that if you want things to be a certain way at a particular point in time, you travel backwards in time and fiddle with events so that they turn out the way you want them to. I’m not sure how (if at all) the idea applies to the Creation and Fall, but it occurs to me that when Adam and Eve sinned, the effects could have rippled backwards in time as well as forwards. But this is most assuredly speculation.
  • Liberian
 
Sin only effects man directly and objectively.

Creation did not fall. Man’s sin did not effect the angels! Niether did it effect the rest of material creation, because material creation did not descend from Adam. Only other men did.

The catechism says:

“Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man”

With original sin, it was not creation that changed. WE changed relative to it, for the worse, but it stayed the same as always.
 
Wonderful thoughts; however, you need to remember that Genesis is not a historical record or a scientific treatise on the creation of the universe. Read John Paul’s Theology of the Body and you will gain a better perspective on this book of the bible.
 
Hello Mr. Ruggerio,

Do you confine God to physical time or do you put our spiritual God outside of physical time and give Him total power over time and creation? No doubt science can see time flowing out to not twelve billion years into the past but infinitely into the past if you consider that empty space and all matter and energy all existed before the “big bang”.

God is out side of time. God is Omni Present to the whole of physical time. The past of time has no power over God and must bend and form to the power of God’s all powerful word. Free willed love for God capable man is at the center of God’s focus point of creation. Both infinite past time and infinite future creation flow out from the focus point of Adam. When man sined, a very different infinite past and infinite future creation flowed out from the focus point of sin. Physical time has no power over, our all Powerful Omni-Present to the whole of time, spiritual God.

Please visit Creation
 
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batteddy:
Creation did not fall. Man’s sin did not effect the angels! Niether did it effect the rest of material creation, because material creation did not descend from Adam. Only other men did.

The catechism says:

“Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man”

With original sin, it was not creation that changed. WE changed relative to it, for the worse, but it stayed the same as always.
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My point is that the created universe existed for a very, very long time before man’s creation and his fall. Think of the universe’s age as one year, if that were so, then man’s appearance and fall would have taken place in the last 1.5 seconds of that year.
 
Mr. Ruggerio:
My point is that the created universe existed for a very, very long time before man’s creation and his fall. Think of the universe’s age as one year, if that were so, then man’s appearance and fall would have taken place in the last 1.5 seconds of that year.
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Sorry. Double checked the math. It would be the last 4.38 minutes of the year.
 
Mr. Ruggerio:
Sorry. Double checked the math. It would be the last 4.38 minutes of the year.
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Or to state it differently—this would be less than one-thousandths of one percent of the time.
 
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batteddy:
“Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man”

With original sin, it was not creation that changed. WE changed relative to it, for the worse, but it stayed the same as always.
Click to expand...
I find it hard to believe there were tornados, earthquakes, flash floods, tidal waves, etc. in the Garden of Eden.:confused:
 
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Ana:
I find it hard to believe there were tornados, earthquakes, flash floods, tidal waves, etc. in the Garden of Eden.:confused:
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Ana,

The problem is, though, that there is geological evidence of tremendous floods during the Mesozoic Era, long before the Garden of Eden was planted. And I daresay hurricanes and earthquakes happened before the Garden of Eden as well. Was this in accordance with an un-cursed paradisical creation?
  • Liberian
 
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Liberian:
Ana,

The problem is, though, that there is geological evidence of tremendous floods during the Mesozoic Era, long before the Garden of Eden was planted. And I daresay hurricanes and earthquakes happened before the Garden of Eden as well. Was this in accordance with an un-cursed paradisical creation?
  • Liberian
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Gawrsh … I have no idea! But it certainly is interesting to think about!😃
 
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Ana:
I find it hard to believe there were tornados, earthquakes, flash floods, tidal waves, etc. in the Garden of Eden.:confused:
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Does our Omni-Present to all physical time, All Powerful, Spiritual God have the Power to alter the past of physical time?

Rainbows, snakes with legs, man without woman, people living multiple hundreds of years, are all things that scriptures tell us changed after the orginal seven days of creation. Scientists are not going to find a point in physical past time before these things changed because the whole of creation, past and future, changed along with these changes.

Our Spiritual Omni-Present to the whole of physical time God has the Power to alter the past of creation. God’s focus point on creation is free-willed, love for God capable, man. During the seven days of creation surrounding the first free willed being, thousands or tens of thousands of years ago, billions of years of physical past if not infinite past and billions of years of physical future if not infinite future, came into existance by the Power of our Omni Present to the whole of physical time, God’s hand. During the seven days of creation, thousands or tens of thousands of years ago, billions of years, if not infinite years of physical past and future, was molded into place by our all Powerful God who exisits outside of the confines of physical time. After the seven days of creation, infinite past and infinite future were altered again to accomodate the changes sin brought into existance.

Please visit Creation
 
I feel very out of my league on this topic, but I am fascinated by these brilliant and intelligent speculations.

God bless!
 
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Ana:
I find it hard to believe there were tornados, earthquakes, flash floods, tidal waves, etc. in the Garden of Eden.:confused:
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tornados, earthquakes, flash floods, tidal waves are all natural occurring events which happen as a result of certain atmospheric, geological conditions. They relieve the pressure of the ever growing, ever evolving planet Earth on which we live. The Earth isn’t stable, never was, never will be. Look at what’s happening as the result of global warming.

Man has viewed those natural events as ‘disasters’ because their property and lives have been lost as a result. Before man existed there had to have been all sorts of natural events taking place - it’s just that those events didn’t affect man or man’s property since it didn’t exist at the time.
 
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YinYangMom:
tornados, earthquakes, flash floods, tidal waves are all natural occurring events which happen as a result of certain atmospheric, geological conditions. They relieve the pressure of the ever growing, ever evolving planet Earth on which we live. The Earth isn’t stable, never was, never will be. Look at what’s happening as the result of global warming.

Man has viewed those natural events as ‘disasters’ because their property and lives have been lost as a result. Before man existed there had to have been all sorts of natural events taking place - it’s just that those events didn’t affect man or man’s property since it didn’t exist at the time.
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There’s another one! :clapping:
 
I was thinking homo habillis evolved into neanderthal man and then God created cro-magnon man and neanderthal died out.
 
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