"Adding" to the Rubrics?

[GangGreen]

It seems like most of the time people complain about abuse in the rubrics it’s more taking away… but what about if a priest wishes to add to them (mostly things from the EF of course)? What leeway do the rubrics have for this?

For example
If the priest wishes to do the “Domine, non sum dignus” (Lord, I am not worthy) three times instead of once?
If the priest wishes to do a nine-fold Kyrie rather than a six-fold.
If the priest wishes to do the prayers after Mass like in the low Mass.

Of course there’s not a lot of things that can be added without really breaking the rubrics… Like if a priest added all of the EF prayers for the offertory.

However, the little things, what can they actually do?

 

[Chatter163]

I
If the priest wishes to do the “Domine, non sum dignus” (Lord, I am not worthy) three times instead of once? The missal says to say this once.
If the priest wishes to do a nine-fold Kyrie rather than a six-fold. The missal says to say this sixfold, with an exception made for classical pieces to be sung in their original ninefold form.
If the priest wishes to do the prayers after Mass like in the low Mass. These prayers were supressed in 1965.

 

[PacoG]

Originally Posted by GangGreen : If the priest wishes to do the prayers after Mass like in the low Mass. These prayers were supressed in 1965.

Actually the priest is free to do these after the final blessing. Then it is a private devotion and not an addition to the Mass.

 

[Corki]

Originally Posted by GangGreen : If the priest wishes to do the prayers after Mass like in the low Mass. These prayers were supressed in 1965.

Actually the priest is free to do these after the final blessing. Then it is a private devotion and not an addition to the Mass.

And if I recall correctly, they were encouraged by Blessed Pope John Paul II.

 

[Chatter163]

Originally Posted by GangGreen : If the priest wishes to do the prayers after Mass like in the low Mass. These prayers were supressed in 1965.

Actually the priest is free to do these after the final blessing. Then it is a private devotion and not an addition to the Mass.

No, the recitationon of these prayers at the end of Mass was suppressed by the decree* Inter Oecumenici*,in 1964, taking effect in March, 1965:

Chapter II. Mystery of the Eucharist

I. ORDO MISSAE (SC art. 50)

1. Until reform of the entire Ordo Missae, the points that follow are to be observed:

j. The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.

 

[Corki]

No, the recitationon of these prayers at the end of Mass was suppressed by the decree* Inter Oecumenici*,in 1964, taking effect in March, 1965:

Chapter II. Mystery of the Eucharist

I. ORDO MISSAE (SC art. 50)

1. Until reform of the entire Ordo Missae, the points that follow are to be observed:

j. The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.

In the Phillipines, at least, it was re-authorized in 2013

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/09/philippines-st-michael-prayer-approved-by-bishops-conference-after-all-masses/

And the Saint Michael prayer itself is not supressed. It can be said outside of (after) Mass.

 

[Chatter163]

In the Phillipines, at least, it was re-authorized in 2013

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/09/philippines-st-michael-prayer-approved-by-bishops-conference-after-all-masses/

And the Saint Michael prayer itself is not supressed. It can be said outside of (after) Mass.

Source, other than the Philipines?

 

[PacoG]

No, the recitationon of these prayers at the end of Mass was suppressed by the decree* Inter Oecumenici*,in 1964, taking effect in March, 1965:

Chapter II. Mystery of the Eucharist

I. ORDO MISSAE (SC art. 50)

1. Until reform of the entire Ordo Missae, the points that follow are to be observed:

j. The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.

Wow. I thought it was pretty clear.

They are suppressed as an OFFICIAL PART of the Mass. They weren’t suppressed as PRIVATE PRAYERS. They can be prayed AFTER the last blessing as a private devotion of the priest or the congregation. If you have ever watched the EWTN televised Daily Mass, they pray the Leonine Prayers after the final dismissal and the priest has exited.

 

[Corki]

Source, other than the Philipines?

Actually, you posted it yourself. The Ordo Missae describes everything that happens during the Mass. It does not describe or regulate anything that happens before or after the Mass.

 

[Chatter163]

Actually, you posted it yourself. The Ordo Missae describes everything that happens during the Mass. It does not describe or regulate anything that happens before or after the Mass.

Wow. I thought it was pretty clear.

They are suppressed as an OFFICIAL PART of the Mass. They weren’t suppressed as PRIVATE PRAYERS. They can be prayed AFTER the last blessing as a private devotion of the priest or the congregation. If you have ever watched the EWTN televised Daily Mass, they pray the Leonine Prayers after the final dismissal and the priest has exited.

You both are confused. First, the Leonine prayers were never an “OFFICIAL PART” of the Order of Mass. They were called the prayers **after **Low Mass for a reason. Second, the the decree Inter Oecuminici specifically suppressed their public recitation after Low Mass because that had become an appendage to Mass (albeit by papal decree). Naturally, the decree did not say that people could not pray them privately, but the whole reason that the suppression was included was to suppress the recitation by the priest and people together after Mass. Next, this is not a matter of the Ordo Missae, but of the decree Inter Oecuminici, which is the INSTRUCTION ON IMPLEMENTING THE CONSTITUTION ON SACRED LITURGY, which includes the appendages to the Mass and Office. To do otherwise is to circumvent the intent of the instruction, Finally, on EWTN they say only the St. Michael prayer, not the Leonine prayers, which include also several other prayers.

 

[Corki]

You both are confused. First, the Leonine prayers were never an “OFFICIAL PART” of the Order of Mass. They were called the prayers **after **Low Mass for a reason. Second, the the decree Inter Oecuminici specifically suppressed their public recitation after Low Mass because that had become an appendage to Mass (albeit by papal decree). Naturally, the decree did not say that people could not pray them privately, but the whole reason that the suppression was included was to suppress the recitation by the priest and people together after Mass. Next, this is not a matter of the Ordo Missae, but of the decree Inter Oecuminici, which is the INSTRUCTION ON IMPLEMENTING THE CONSTITUTION ON SACRED LITURGY, which includes the appendages to the Mass and Office. To do otherwise is to circumvent the intent of the instruction, Finally, on EWTN they say only the St. Michael prayer, not the Leonine prayers, which include also several other prayers.

Father Z seems to disagree.

wdtprs.com/blog/2012/01/quaeritur-the-leonine-prayers-after-mass-in-the-ordinary-form-wherein-fr-z-rants/

I can think of no rational reason why reciting these prayers after Mass could be a bad thing.

 

[Chatter163]

Father Z seems to disagree.

wdtprs.com/blog/2012/01/quaeritur-the-leonine-prayers-after-mass-in-the-ordinary-form-wherein-fr-z-rants/

I can think of no rational reason why reciting these prayers after Mass could be a bad thing.

Did anyone say that reciting prayers is a bad idea? The question is whether or not it is permissible to pray them publicly after Mass, led by a priest. The Holy See suppressed this practice, which had been started by Pope Leo XIII in 1884, and ended during the pontificate of Paul VI in 1965. I like these prayers, and we use them at our EF Mass parish, because we use the 1962 missal, where they are still permitted. But according to the decree, the practice is suppressed under the reformed liturgy. The Pontifical Commission **Ecclesia Dei **has permitted their use in EF communties where the custom exists. I respect Fr. Z, but unless a bishop or the Holy See has given permission in a specific instance, no permission has been given for public recitation at the OF, and the decree stands. Part of the reform was the simplification of the concluding rites, and it was felt that the last gospel and Leonine prayers, which were very late additions, undermined this. I am not stating that I dislike the prayers, but what the decree states.

 

[ProVobis]

Part of the reform was the simplification of the concluding rites, and it was felt that the last gospel and Leonine prayers, which were very late additions, undermined this. I am not stating that I dislike the prayers, but what the decree states.

Part of the reform was also to add hymns to both the beginning and end of Mass, replacing the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the Last Gospel, as you mentioned.

 

[Corki]

Did anyone say that reciting prayers is a bad idea? The question is whether or not it is permissible to pray them publicly after Mass, led by a priest. The Holy See suppressed this practice, which had been started by Pope Leo XIII in 1884, and ended during the pontificate of Paul VI in 1965. I like these prayers, and we use them at our EF Mass parish, because we use the 1962 missal, where they are still permitted. But according to the decree, the practice is suppressed under the reformed liturgy. The Pontifical Commission **Ecclesia Dei **has permitted their use in EF communties where the custom exists. I respect Fr. Z, but unless a bishop or the Holy See has given permission in a specific instance, no permission has been given for public recitation at the OF, and the decree stands. Part of the reform was the simplification of the concluding rites, and it was felt that the last gospel and Leonine prayers, which were very late additions, undermined this. I am not stating that I dislike the prayers, but what the decree states.

What I am saying is that you read that decree and interpret it to mean that the priest cannot say the St. Michael prayer in the Church, with members of the congregation who stay after Mass is over.

Fr. Z reads the same decree along with other things that have been said, including Blessed Pope John Paul II call to say the prayer more frequently, and his interpretation is that, as long as Mass itself is over, it is not prohibited.

With two different informed interpretation, it would be incorrect to tell the OP *categorically *that it is wrong for his priest to say these prayers.

I think it is a mistake to take certain passages out of Inter oecumenici and apply them to the liturgical reality of 2014. If you read the decree in its entirety, you can see that it has an interim quality.

Here is the whole paragraph (bolding mine) :

1. Until reform of the entire Ordo Missae, the points that follow are to be observed:

a. The celebrant is not to say privately those parts of the Proper sung or recited by the choir or the congregation.

b. The celebrant may sing or recite the parts of the Ordinary together with the congregation or choir.

c. In the prayers at the foot of the altar at the beginning of Mass Psalm 42 is omitted. All the prayers at the foot of the altar are omitted whenever there is another liturgical rite immediately preceding.

d. In solemn Mass the subdeacon does not hold the paten but leaves it on the altar.

e. In sung Masses the secret prayer or prayer over the gifts is sung and in other Masses recited aloud.

f. The doxology at the end of the canon, from Per ipsum through Per omnia saecula saeculorum. R. Amen, is to be sung or recited aloud. Throughout the whole doxology the celebrant slightly elevates the chalice with the host, omitting the signs of the cross, and genuflects at the end after the Amen response by the people.

g. In recited Masses the congregation may recite the Lord’s Prayer in the vernacular along with the celebrant; in sung Masses the people may sing it in Latin along with the celebrant and, should the territorial ecclesiastical authority have so decreed, also in the vernacular, using melodies approved by the same authority.

h. The embolism after the Lord’s Prayer shall be sung or recited aloud.

i. The formulary for distributing holy communion is to be, Corpus Christi. As he says these words, the celebrant holds the host slightly above the ciborium and shows it to the communicant, who responds: Amen, then receives communion from the celebrant, the sign of the cross with the host being omitted.

j. The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.

k. It is lawful to celebrate a sung Mass with only a deacon assisting.

l. It is lawful, when necessary, for bishops to celebrate a sung Mass following the form used by priests.

This was directed to Bishops on how to make liturgical adjustments after Vatican II but BEFORE the new Missal (or even the English translations) were promulgated. This is basically the document on which the Missal of 1965 was based. There have been many liturgical directives since then.

There are also many parts of this decree that are no longer followed or enforced since we now have a new Missal (at least three since this was promulgated) . Note above This is rarely observed and no longer required. Also, this decree includes the prayers at the foot of the altar for the first Mass of the day, something that is no longer practiced.

 

[Chatter163]

What I am saying is that you read that decree and interpret it to mean that the priest cannot say the St. Michael prayer in the Church, with members of the congregation who stay after Mass is over.

Fr. Z reads the same decree along with other things that have been said, including Blessed Pope John Paul II call to say the prayer more frequently, and his interpretation is that, as long as Mass itself is over, it is not prohibited.

With two different informed interpretation, it would be incorrect to tell the OP *categorically *that it is wrong for his priest to say these prayers.

I think it is a mistake to take certain passages out of Inter oecumenici and apply them to the liturgical reality of 2014. If you read the decree in its entirety, you can see that it has an interim quality.

Here is the whole paragraph (bolding mine) :

This was directed to Bishops on how to make liturgical adjustments after Vatican II but BEFORE the new Missal (or even the English translations) were promulgated. This is basically the document on which the Missal of 1965 was based. There have been many liturgical directives since then.

There are also many parts of this decree that are no longer followed or enforced since we now have a new Missal (at least three since this was promulgated) . Note above This is rarely observed and no longer required. Also, this decree includes the prayers at the foot of the altar for the first Mass of the day, something that is no longer practiced.

Some good points made here. My concern was that the Leonine prayers–which one could consider an anomaly, since they were recited publicly for only a relatively short time (not quite eighty years) by papal decree, and ended by curial decree that carried papal approbation–were stopped, and with a specific goal in mind, i.e., to make the end of the Order of Mass a bit more clear. I understand about the changed liturgical context, but as a traditionalist, I know that we generally have disdain when practices are introduced without authority. We don’t like the “I can do XYZ, along as there is nothing specifically forbidding it” mindset, and we complain when people hold hands during the Our Father, justifying it that way, or raise their hands when they respond to the priest at Mass. And so when we have a situation where someone is deciding that this public recitation is a good practice, and we do actually have an instruction that discontinues that specific practice, it causes me to try and be consistent, even under the different liturgical landscape.