Affirmations

[purplesunshine]

My initial point still stands that affirmations are useless for changing someones mental state.

Very true. I can remind myself 100 times to get the bread, feed the dog, or not lock my keys in my car but I STILL do not turn into bread, dogfood or a car key.

We all self-motivate. We reward ourselves with icecream after a hike, with an xbox on graduation or treat ourselves out for a birthday no on remembered.

But we are not a slogan, nor do we become a slogan. In a children’s book Anne of Green Gables (or perhaps Anne of Avonlea) she tells herself she must have black hair to be beautiful. She ceceaslly chants this. Even buys a dye to have black hair…with comically disasterous results. Thinking about having black hair…even doing something about it made ABSOLUTELY no difference.

I do have to add one caveat, Scripture. As scripture is the word of God and mystically connected to Jesus (Jesus is the WORD made flesh) repeating a Bible verse may legitimatly aid in the overcoming fear, doubt, (although legitimate depression is still best treated by medicine.)

 

[TimothyH]

Um…okay. You totally lost me.

Great story about the brother though.

Remember the movie “A Bronx Tale”, the part about what a real tough guy is, what real strength is?

but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.” I will rather boast most gladly of my weaknesses, in order that the power of Christ may dwell with me. Therefore, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and constraints, for the sake of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthains 12:9-10)

-Tim-

 

[promethius]

I do not agree with Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs and self-esteem is a dangerous load of bs. A person can fulfill 1 or not and still go to step seven. Look at the desert fathers, Saints, Buddhist monks etc.

I’ve seen professional criticisms of the ORDER of the hierarchy, or even questioning that there is a hierarchy at all. However, unless you can produce a professional source denying the need for self-esteem or proclaiming it dangerous, I’m afraid I’m going to have to dismiss this assertion as an undergrad spouting an unqualified opinion.

I have a degree in physics. I’m not a doctorate. I know my opinion doesn’t count for squat in the professional world. The sooner you realize that, the more effective you will be in a debate.

I never said a single thing about treating depression based solely on external symptoms. Talk about a straw man. You have erected a very large one in trying to attack an argument I wasn’t making.

My apologies, I should have used the word “regard” rather than treat. Treat has multiple meanings. What I meant was that we can’t observe depression merely from external symptoms.

I base this off of the fact that two of my close family friends are chronic pain psychologists who have been in practice for more than 20 years. People in MENTAL anguish do not always show symptoms physiologically. They are doctors, they have an expert opinion. Unless you can cite me something professional to back up your first assertion, again, I will have no choice but to dismiss it as unqualified opinion of an undergrad student.

Suicide isn’t a high risk when people are in the lowest parts of depression. The risk comes right at the point you are talking about. The upswing. The upswing or the point where it seems people are rebounding is the point where suicide risk is the greatest and most prevalent. They aren’t showing external signs of depression because they are coming out of the depression and actually feeling better.

You have an expert source for this (rather spectacular) claim?

 

[Newbie2]

It’s funny that you say that because I lost my dad to suicide at nine years old. My mother knew the signs were there although unexpressed. I found your response very condescending and insensitive.

Sorry to hear that.

If they (the signs) were unexpressed, how could they have been seen?

What did I do but try to provide some helpful information? You feel the need to attack my education by putting it in quotation marks and suggesting I get my money back?

What I’m saying is that IF one of the things you learned from your education is that you can spot a depressed person simply by looking at them, then you have been taught a falsehood, and you’re passing along that falsehood.

Whether you like it or not body language and non-verbal communication is 93% of what we “say”.

And they taught you at that school how to be accurate in your interpretation 100% of the time, because that what you seem to have said.

Maybe I’m wrong?

Yeah, that’s my point. Maybe you’re wrong. I would be in total agreement if you had written something like, “In some cases, people can show signs of depression that are easily recognizable”.
I guess there could be tons of depressed people out there running around smiling and skipping though the day.

Possibly.

But it’s more likely that there are at least some depressed people out there who have learned to hide their depression or do not express it. I don’t mean to rub a raw nerve, please don’t take it as such, but you said that you had a family member with depression that you yourself said was unexpressed.

I have a problem with your absolute statement that “You can spot a depressed person just by looking at them” and your using your “almost have a degree in psycology” (undergraduate, I assume) to give gravitas to this statement, that’s all.

 

[vontroster]

I’ve seen professional criticisms of the ORDER of the hierarchy, or even questioning that there is a hierarchy at all. However, unless you can produce a professional source denying the need for self-esteem or proclaiming it dangerous, I’m afraid I’m going to have to dismiss this assertion as an undergrad spouting an unqualified opinion.

I have a degree in physics. I’m not a doctorate. I know my opinion doesn’t count for squat in the professional world. The sooner you realize that, the more effective you will be in a debate.

My apologies, I should have used the word “regard” rather than treat. Treat has multiple meanings. What I meant was that we can’t observe depression merely from external symptoms.

I base this off of the fact that two of my close family friends are chronic pain psychologists who have been in practice for more than 20 years. People in MENTAL anguish do not always show symptoms physiologically. They are doctors, they have an expert opinion. Unless you can cite me something professional to back up your first assertion, again, I will have no choice but to dismiss it as unqualified opinion of an undergrad student.

You have an expert source for this (rather spectacular) claim?

Dr. Albert Ellis (1996) states “Self-esteem is perhaps the greatest emotional sickness known to humans. When I esteem myself—that i s, give myself a
global rating—I almost always do so because I think myself as efficacious and lovable. This means that when I act inefficiently and unlovably—which, as a fallible human I often
will—back to s@#&hood go I! Even when I perform well and am approved by significant others, I worry, worry, worry about how well I will do tomorrow. So I am always overtly or underlyingly anxious!”

On depression I should clarify. Imagine the scale of depression as an upside down bell curve. At the very bottom of the curve people are often so depressed they can’t get out of bed, eat, bath, etc. Much less find the motivation to carry out a suicide plan. The two danger points for depression and suicide is on the downward slope and the upward slope. Some theorize that the link between anti-depressants and suicide is due to the fact that the person is beginning to pull themselves out of that bottom cycle and now they have the “energy” to carry out their suicide plan. Of course they are still depressed but not to the degree of bottom of the pit severe depression. I get this from Dr. Dennis Fenichel’s lecture notes and handouts.

You stated, “I know my opinion doesn’t count for squat in the professional world. The sooner you realize that, the more effective you will be in a debate.”

I never claimed that my opinion mattered in the professional world. I simply stated that I would share what I had learned about affirmations and stated some education that I had dealing with said topic. This is hardly seeming to offer an expert or professional opinion. Also, what does the “professional world” have to do with anything. This isn’t the professional world.

And again I was simply sharing what I’ve learned about the efficacy of affirmations. I also shared knowledge about body language / physiology and how to use it to change a persons state. I offered the example of a depressed person and their physiology to provide a visualization to the example. And you can spot depression through body posture, facial expressions, etc. Does this mean that every human who is depressed will show these things? Of course not, but let the ridiculous over argumentation of internet forums commence. Again, I should have added a five page disclaimer of “not applicable to…”. Let’s set the record straight, I responded to a thread on affirmations not suicide, chronic depression, people with severe depression having the ability to mask symptoms, bi-polar disorder, dysthymia, ADHD, panic disorder, anorexia, bulimia, generalized anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, agoraphobia without history of panic disorder, oppositional defiance disorder, cyclothymic disorder, multi-infarct dementia, anxiety lepidopterophobia, dissociative fugue, or idiotpathic hypersomnia.

Ellis, A. (1996). How I learned to help clients feel better and get better. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 33(1), 149-149-151. doi:10.1037/0033-3204.33.1.149

 

[Newbie2]

Dr. Albert Ellis (1996) states “Self-esteem is perhaps the greatest emotional sickness known to humans. When I esteem myself—that i s, give myself a
global rating—I almost always do so because I think myself as efficacious and lovable. This means that when I act inefficiently and unlovably—which, as a fallible human I often
will—back to s@#&hood go I! Even when I perform well and am approved by significant others, I worry, worry, worry about how well I will do tomorrow. So I am always overtly or underlyingly anxious!”

On depression I should clarify. Imagine the scale of depression as an upside down bell curve. At the very bottom of the curve people are often so depressed they can’t get out of bed, eat, bath, etc. Much less find the motivation to carry out a suicide plan. The two danger points for depression and suicide is on the downward slope and the upward slope. Some theorize that the link between anti-depressants and suicide is due to the fact that the person is beginning to pull themselves out of that bottom cycle and now they have the “energy” to carry out their suicide plan. Of course they are still depressed but not to the degree of bottom of the pit severe depression. I get this from Dr. Dennis Fenichel’s lecture notes and handouts.

You stated, “I know my opinion doesn’t count for squat in the professional world. The sooner you realize that, the more effective you will be in a debate.”

I never claimed that my opinion mattered in the professional world. I simply stated that I would share what I had learned about affirmations and stated some education that I had dealing with said topic. This is hardly seeming to offer an expert or professional opinion. Also, what does the “professional world” have to do with anything. This isn’t the professional world.

And again I was simply sharing what I’ve learned about the efficacy of affirmations. I also shared knowledge about body language / physiology and how to use it to change a persons state. I offered the example of a depressed person and their physiology to provide a visualization to the example. And you can spot depression through body posture, facial expressions, etc. Does this mean that every human who is depressed will show these things? Of course not , but let the ridiculous over argumentation of internet forums commence. Again, I should have added a five page disclaimer of “not applicable to…”. Let’s set the record straight, I responded to a thread on affirmations not suicide, chronic depression, people with severe depression having the ability to mask symptoms, bi-polar disorder, dysthymia, ADHD, panic disorder, anorexia, bulimia, generalized anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, agoraphobia without history of panic disorder, oppositional defiance disorder, cyclothymic disorder, multi-infarct dementia, anxiety lepidopterophobia, dissociative fugue, or idiotpathic hypersomnia.

Ellis, A. (1996). How I learned to help clients feel better and get better. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 33(1), 149-149-151. doi:10.1037/0033-3204.33.1.149

This, methinks, would have save some electrons being spilled had you written this the first time, saving yourself from some of our “ridiculous” responses. No need to give a five page dissertation, just be more clear when you assert something. Just sayin’…

 

[vontroster]

This, methinks, would have save some electrons being spilled had you written this the first time, saving yourself from some of our “ridiculous” responses. No need to give a five page dissertation, just be more clear when you assert something. Just sayin’…

The problem is that people take a statement out of context and try to assert that a person is making some absolute statement. I suppose my original post could be read and interpreted that “every human on the planet at all times can change their state by asking questions and paying attention to their posture / physiology” which of course would be ridiculous. The context of the postings was about affirmations and someone decides to pick one statement out of a couple of paragraphs. For what? Simply to attack and argue. It is pointless. All of my original statements stand including “you can spot a depressed person by looking at them.” Which doesn’t in any way say “you can spot every depressed person by looking at them.” To add in “every” to that statement is being dishonest and just looking for something to attack and argue about.

 

[Newbie2]

The problem is that people take a statement out of context and try to assert that a person is making some absolute statement. I suppose my original post could be read and interpreted that “every human on the planet at all times can change their state by asking questions and paying attention to their posture / physiology” which of course would be ridiculous. The context of the postings was about affirmations and someone decides to pick one statement out of a couple of paragraphs. For what? Simply to attack and argue. It is pointless. All of my original statements stand including “you can spot a depressed person by looking at them.” Which doesn’t in any way say “you can spot every depressed person by looking at them.” To add in “every” to that statement is being dishonest and just looking for something to attack and argue about.

I honestly thought that what you meant, “every”.