Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[Angels_Unaware]

All right…I have an extremely busy life, and I don’t get to read all the posts, though I try to search for responses to mine. (Maybe someone can give me some help on shortcuts?) Any way, tell me the answers to these questions:
Does the RCC teach that ALL Christians are saints, as Paul indicates at the outset of most his letters to the churches?

Second, I have not seen a solid explanation as to why this verse doesn’t shatter the notion that a truly born again person needs to be in fear of punishment (I’m not talking about the Father’s loving, earthly chastening)–
"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” "–Rom 8:15
What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear. And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend. And the truly born again person is out from under that system. (It never worked in the OT either)

Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.

Let’s deal with those two for now.

Yes, the Church teaches all people in heaven are saints.

What do you think All Saints Day is for???

I’ve answered your second question twice now, so why type it out again?

I guess my answers are disqualified?

 

[Techno2000]

No. You wrongly assume that the only value of a sinning Christian to the enemy is hell. He loves to disgrace God and waste Christian’s lives by ensnaring them in sin.

Ok, so the only thing the Devil can hope for is to disgrace God and waste Christian’s lives.Then that would make God Unjust, to charge non-Christian’s with the full penalty of sin (Hell) and
No penalty at all for the same sins the Christian commits ?

 

[Martin777]

:hypno: :hypno: :hypno: I’m in a transe now… Paul never feared for his salvation… he was always sure of it… he tells us the race is over, just relax and enjoy it now… Paul never feared for his salvation… he was always sure of it… he tells us the race is over, just relax and enjoy it now… Paul never feared for …:hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

Now you happy… I know you won’t be till we all say this is how we see it… so I thought I’d go first:thumbsup:

SD

You are sooooo wrong. Give me one verse where Paul clearly states he could lose his salvation. By the way, the verse where he expresses concern about being a ‘castaway’ is a reference to being useless for service.

 

[Martin777]

I am not sure what this discussion is about so I will bow out. But martin if you are saying what the verse means, I believe that what paul says is by his death he did release us from sin. But the devil can always tempt us and we can fall back into sin. What Paul is saying there is no way you can sin and let grace prosper.

The way I see it Paul is saying yes Jesus took away death by dying on the Cross. He did pay for our sins and salvation. But don’t think that just because Jesus payed for our sins we are off the hook. We will answer for ever sin we make. Jesus set us free yes, but we can sin and if we don’t confess our sins, and quit sinning we are in trouble. We will answer for ever sin.

Really? Then explain why in Ch 6 Paul says, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?” He says “May it never be”, But the implication, which is consistent with the whole body of Paul’s work, is that if for a CHRISTIAN sin increases…grace will abound! He says so in Ch 5. You guys are so bound up in legalism and it is so sad.

 

[SD_Catholic]

For the love of…

Ok, yeah, go ahead and call me bitter every single time I don’t fall flat on my face and say: “The RC church is right! The RC church is right!”. That’s very solid reasoning…

I’m not bitter, but like everyone else, I get defensive when attacked. Especially when faced with uncohesive arguments that describe themselves as valid, and then have the audacity to want to correct me, because I don’t accept them. And when I’ve heard that enough times, well, then yes, I WILL probably get a little bitter. But at that time, I don’t think it will be my fault alone…

Uhhhhh… yep that’s bitterness… I guess I missed that attack seen you were involved with

SD

 

[guanophore]

All right…I have an extremely busy life, and I don’t get to read all the posts, though I try to search for responses to mine. (Maybe someone can give me some help on shortcuts?)

Check your profile. The system is set to show you any threads in which you are posting that may have responses. WHen you click on the thread, it will take you to the beginning. Use the link at the top to go to “last unread”. that will take you to the point in the thread where you left off. From there, you can quickly scroll to see if there are any posts directed to you. That is where you will find all my posts!

Any way, tell me the answers to these questions:
Does the RCC teach that ALL Christians are saints, as Paul indicates at the outset of most his letters to the churches?

Yes and No. We are made holy when we are baptized, but most people do not remain in that state of purity. Persons who fall from grace and remain unrepentant do not have the grace of God working in their lives to produce the santification that belongs to saints.

Second, I have not seen a solid explanation as to why this verse doesn't shatter the notion that a truly born again person needs to be in fear of punishment (I'm not talking about the Father's loving, earthly chastening)--

I doubt you will find one here. The Catholic Church does not teach us tht we should live in fear of punishment. Instead we are taught to be obedient, so as to avoid punishment.

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” "–Rom 8:15

Sons can also fall back into slavery. When the prodigal son was in the pigpen, was he any less a son? Did His father ever stop loving him?

What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear. And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend. And the truly born again person is out from under that system. (It never worked in the OT either)

I can understand why it might seem that way to you. What do you think Jesus is saying here::

Matt 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.

Let’s deal with those two for now.

No, I think that is your PERCEPTION of the difference between the RCC and Evangelicals. I have another question about this verse:

Gal 5:3-4
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

After reading this, how do you justify the teaching that once one is in Christ, one can never be “severed”? Why is it taught that it is not possible to fall from grace?

Rev 3:5-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and** I will not blot his name out of the book of life**; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Why is it taught that one’s name cannot be blotted out of the book of life?

 

[guanophore]

You are sooooo wrong. Give me one verse where Paul clearly states he could lose his salvation. By the way, the verse where he expresses concern about being a ‘castaway’ is a reference to being useless for service.

Paul did not consider that he was “saved”. He believed that he was working out his salvation, running the race, and that he could be “disqualified”.

" Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Cor 9:24-27

Does the Apostle imply here that one can “obtain it” (the prize) without running? Do you think the “imperishable” is something other than eternal life? From what do you think he does not want to be “disqualified”?

For the Apostles, salvation was not completed until the final judgement.

Phil 3:11
11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Scripture is full of these conditional expressions. “if” means that certain things need to occur in order for it to happen. One of those things is that he not be disqualified from the race.

It would be more accurate to say that one has not yet “attained” salvation than “lost” it.

" Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Phil 3:12-16

The Apostle presses on because he has not yet “arrived”. He does not consider himself “saved” until that last day - when he reaches the goal, the prize. This is the mature attitude toward salvation.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Really? Then explain why in Ch 6 Paul says, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?” He says “May it never be”, But the implication, which is consistent with the whole body of Paul’s work, is that if for a CHRISTIAN sin increases…grace will abound! He says so in Ch 5. You guys are so bound up in legalism and it is so sad.

Ok please tell me I am only misreading your post… it’s so hard to get things across on the internet at times.

But are you implying that Paul taught by sinning we grow in grace?

 

[guanophore]

Really? Then explain why in Ch 6 Paul says, “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?” He says “May it never be”, But the implication, which is consistent with the whole body of Paul’s work, is that if for a CHRISTIAN sin increases…grace will abound! He says so in Ch 5. You guys are so bound up in legalism and it is so sad.

Martin, it is not legalistic to accept that there are certain spiritual truths in the universe. The wages of sin is death. Sin did not change after the crucifxion,and the wages did not either. The wages of sin are still death. If one does not accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, then they will pay the wage. When one persists in sin, one is spurning His sacrifice, and will pay the wage.

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

This passage is talking about persons who have become partakers of His grace. this cannot happen unless one is born again.

 

[guanophore]

Ok please tell me I am only misreading your post… it’s so hard to get things across on the internet at times.

But are you implying that Paul taught by sinning we grow in grace?

I think he is saying that if a Christian sins, there will be more grace to cover the sins. He is drawing this from “implication” in the passage. However, when I say that scripture “implies” that one can be blotted out of the book of life, that method cannot be applied!

Rev 3:5-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and** I will not blot his name out of the book of life;** I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[Matariel]

Does the RCC teach that ALL Christians are saints, as Paul indicates at the outset of most his letters to the churches?

That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.

“The RC church is right! The RC church is right!”. That’s very solid reasoning…

Huh? I don’t get it. Why do you call our Church by a slang name? Call it the Catholic Church-- that’s its real name, the other is a misnomer.

Have the decency to call the Church by her real name, we call your churches/sects by their names.

 

[guanophore]

Huh? I don’t get it. Why do you call our Church by a slang name? Call it the Catholic Church-- that’s its real name, the other is a misnomer.

Have the decency to call the Church by her real name, we call your churches/sects by their names.

After you read some of the insults posted by RealCatholic about the Protestants, you may want to revise that “we” part. I do not agree with the use of insulting language no matter who is using it. I dont’ think that Martin knows anything about the non-Roman parts of the Catholic Church, and has been so steeped in anti-Romanism that it is just second nature.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Paul did not consider that he was “saved”. He believed that he was working out his salvation, running the race, and that he could be “disqualified”.

" Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Cor 9:24-27

Does the Apostle imply here that one can “obtain it” (the prize) without running? Do you think the “imperishable” is something other than eternal life? From what do you think he does not want to be “disqualified”?

For the Apostles, salvation was not completed until the final judgement.

Phil 3:11
11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Scripture is full of these conditional expressions. “if” means that certain things need to occur in order for it to happen. One of those things is that he not be disqualified from the race.

It would be more accurate to say that one has not yet “attained” salvation than “lost” it.

" Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Phil 3:12-16

The Apostle presses on because he has not yet “arrived”. He does not consider himself “saved” until that last day - when he reaches the goal, the prize. This is the mature attitude toward salvation.

Thanks guanophore… had to go eat and light advent candles with the family… you know those crazy wierd Catholics … besides you can do it soooo much better than I.

SD

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed.

Thanks for all who participated.