Age of Aisha at time of marriage

[birdsong]

Scarecrow;

I guess I will have to add a “Masters in red-herring and straw man” to your PhD in taquiya science that I mentioned in a previous post …

you credentials are most impressive !!!

rod, that doesnt sound very Christian to say what you said. Not very Charitable.

are you a medical doctor to know what a pedophile is? what is pedophilia?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Not very charitable for an old man to have sex with a nine year old pre-pubertal child either. Ever thought of that?

BTW: it is not just medical doctors who have the right to label someone a pedophile. Law-enforcers and social workers do too.

 

[Scarecrow]

Not very charitable for an old man to have sex with a nine year old pre-pubertal child either. Ever thought of that?

BTW: it is not just medical doctors who have the right to label someone a pedophile. Law-enforcers and social workers do too.

The prophet of islam does not fall under the modern designation of pedophile. Not even if it were applied to the cultures of the world or ancient times. here is the definition of pedophile:

Pedophilia or pædophilia (see spelling differences) is the psychiatric disorder of being sexually attracted preferentially or exclusively to prepubescent and in some definitions, preadolescent children. Pedophilia is described as a paraphilia and mental disorder by standard diagnosis manuals, including the ICD-10 and [DSM IV. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile.[1]

The term pedophile is also used to denote an adult who is sexually attracted to children or sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent,[2] as well as those who have sexually abused a child. Sexual abuse is an illegal activity in most jurisdictions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

 

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow;

I guess I will have to add a “Masters in red-herring and straw man” to your PhD in taquiya science that I mentioned in a previous post …

you credentials are most impressive !!!

if your not a psychiatric doctor then you cannot make the claim that their prophet is a pedophile.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Oooh, suddenly it’s my medical qualifications that are under question - but not your prophet’s sexual intercourse with a nine year old child.

Yeah, I’m sure everyone can see right through you, scarecrow.

 

[Montalban]

I believe the essay addresses some of these issues.

Indeed, and note your article says…

"It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, "
muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

That is, in the 1,400 years of Islam, with all the Islamic scholars around it took until 1,350 years before one Moslem decided that Aisha was anything other than nine!

And is this view now the majority view in Islam?

Most Muslims will take the writing of an Hadith over history…
“Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was “six years old”, but was not consummated until she was “nine years old”. Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn’t seem much room for debate about cAishah’s age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language “nine years old” means something other than “nine years old”, then we should all be firm in our belief that she was “nine years old” (as if there’s a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah’s age out to as far as “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim! Based on the research that I’ve done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah’s age was “fourteen or fifteen years old” at the time of the marriage. This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .”
islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
(We concur with the general contents of the article.
and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best Mufti Ebrahim Desai islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6618)

 

[Montalban]

The prophet of islam does not fall under the modern designation of pedophile. Not even if it were applied to the cultures of the world or ancient times. here is the definition of pedophile:

Pedophilia or pædophilia (see spelling differences) is the psychiatric disorder of being sexually attracted preferentially or exclusively to prepubescent and in some definitions, preadolescent children. Pedophilia is described as a paraphilia and mental disorder by standard diagnosis manuals, including the ICD-10 and [DSM IV. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile.[1]

The term pedophile is also used to denote an adult who is sexually attracted to children or sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent,[2] as well as those who have sexually abused a child. Sexual abuse is an illegal activity in most jurisdictions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Aisha was his *favourite *wife

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia

1. Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
2. The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
3. The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

I don’t see anything about pedophiles being “sexually attracted preferentially or exclusively to prepubescent and in some definitions, preadolescent children” in the above definition, do you?

If I were not so charitable I would think you are making up your own strawman definitions just the way you made up those documents you had read that were inconsistent with the Bukhari hadiths. But I will let others decide on that issue.

 

[Montalban]

I just have heard arguments on all sides, thats all. Wikipedia is great for these things.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%27if

I like to be fair to people of every faith. I only suggest you do the same.

However Bukhari is not a ‘weak’ hadith. And Bukhari says she was nine.

 

[strngrnrth]

good job rod.

now, the average age of women that were legally married in ancient rome at the time were 10-13.

some women reach puberty as early as nine and the average is 10-14 and have their first period.

*When does menstruation begin?

These days, girls begin to menstruate when they are about 10 to 14 years-old.
*
netdoctor.co.uk/health_advice/facts/menstruation_cycle.htm

whats the big deal?

Read the fora. Really. All these points have been answered and answered here.
To go on some more: Once again, some infants are BORN MENSTRUATING. They don’t have mature bodies or brains at that time. They are newborns with out-of-balance hormones. The age at which a girl typically can have intercourse without being physically hurt by it is around the time she has sexual urges – around midway from menarche to age 20. Before that, she is being used painfully, often injuriously, for the gratification of another person’s urges while having never experienced those urges herself and thus having no comprehension of what it might mean. The average American girl now has menarche (first menstruation) at 12. In the poorest countries, the average is 16. This means that “sex” between an adult man and a girl under 16 in a rich country (18 in the poorest countries, 17 in most places one can assume), is ABUSE. Taking over someone’s life so that one can abuse her is ENSLAVEMENT.
The brain doesn’t quite keep pace with fast-growing bodies, nor the mind with many fast-growing brains. A girl who first had her period at birth may have the sexual maturity of a 16-year-old at 10, but her other systems, including the skeletomuscular sytem and the nervous system (a big part of looking and feeling grown-up) will be between that and a normal 10-year-old (IOW, about 13), while her brain will be that of a 12-year-old or so, and her skill at using that brain and nervous system will be that of an 11-year-old perhaps. Eleven is not adolescent. It is preadolescent. Adolescence is from a third or halfway into pubescence to seven-nine years later. In America right now, that is 12 to 20 for girls, 13 to 21 for boys, on average. Adolescence is a bridge from childhood to adulthood. When it begins, it overlaps childhood. When it ends, it overlaps adulthood. A girl is physically a child till age 16, then an adult.
With a good childhood environment and a healthy teenage transition, she can then be an adult at 16 or maybe not till she is 17 or 18. A boy runs around one year beind a girl. That is, many boys are not men till they are 19. Many girls are just little girls till they are 18. Many other girls are young women at 16, and many boys are young men at 17.
Some are pushed to pretend at adulthood early. Though this is sometimes necessary when a population has few adults and many children, it always harms the youth. People pushed to act mature domestically at an early age have more depression and difficulty adjusting. Children pushed into sexual, production, military and other adult roles have even worse problems.
Sexual abuse harms children all their lives, in all societies. It leads to depression (which kills), rages, nightmares and sleep disturbances, boundary problems, difficulty concentrating, cruelty to one’s own children in an attempt to distance oneself from the painful memory of childhood, substance abuse and paranoia, among a lot of other results, all bad.

 

[Willma]

Not very charitable for an old man to have sex with a nine year old pre-pubertal child either. Ever thought of that?

BTW: it is not just medical doctors who have the right to label someone a pedophile. Law-enforcers and social workers do too.

This conversations really gets old.
During the dark ages and I assume before them; a girls was married off at the first sign of menstruation. It is no secret that girls were married off to other Italian families to keep ties together. (and this near the vatican… ) It is just the way it was. It was normal to them. They were not pedophiles ; they did what was normal to them. You cannot judge them by 2007 standards. This was a normal for their socity not ours.
Thankfully girls have more of a childhood but sadly it still happens. In many LDC.

 

[strngrnrth]

This conversations really gets old.
During the dark ages and I assume before them; a girls was married off at the first sign of menstruation. It is no secret that girls were married off to other Italian families to keep ties together. (and this near the vatican… ) It is just the way it was. It was normal to them. They were not pedophiles ; they did what was normal to them. You cannot judge them by 2007 standards. This was a normal for their socity not ours.
Thankfully girls have more of a childhood but sadly it still happens. In many LDC.

In the late Middle Ages, the typical age of marriage was about 22 for women and 25 for men. Before that, it was slightly lower, but not much. Italian nobility did have a reputation for early marriages but it was the exception.
In Israel before the Babylonian and Persian captivities, the typical age of marriage for girls was a round 15, whereas they menstruated at about 12 or 13. The age difference between bride and groom was between two and five years. Records suggest girls chose their spouses. Marriages were not consummated for a year or two, often even longer. Less than 20 percent of early Christian girls had marriage contracts before age 15. The expected age of menarche was 13 or 14 by then. Then, too, marriage was not always consummated right away. The existence of pledged virgins shows that girls had choices about their marriages then, too.
If pagans did things differently, well, pagan primitive societies now also do some things that hurt kids, like genital mutilation, burning and scarring, and even early “marriage”.

 

[Willma]

In the late Middle Ages, the typical age of marriage was about 22 for women and 25 for men. Before that, it was slightly lower, but not much. Italian nobility did have a reputation for early marriages but it was the exception.
In Israel before the Babylonian and Persian captivities, the typical age of marriage for girls was a round 15, whereas they menstruated at about 12 or 13. The age difference between bride and groom was between two and five years. Records suggest girls chose their spouses. Marriages were not consummated for a year or two, often even longer. Less than 20 percent of early Christian girls had marriage contracts before age 15. The expected age of menarche was 13 or 14 by then. Then, too, marriage was not always consummated right away. The existence of pledged virgins shows that girls had choices about their marriages then, too.
If pagans did things differently, well, pagan primitive societies now also do some things that hurt kids, like genital mutilation, burning and scarring, and even early "marr

Not true…

Read “Woman on the 15th century”
any western civ book. (college level)

“The faith of men”

“Renaissance revealed” olderbook
and the list goes on…

 

[Mjae]

The problem, for me, is not that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old (if it was MY nine-yearl old, dang RIGHT he’d be called a pedophile!), but that his reprehensible behavior is set up as a model for today’s Muslims to follow.

I’d be quite happy for Islam to suffer from mass amnesia in that area if only to have Sh’ria law in those nations change the age of consent for girls to anything like an appropriate age; say, 18.

 

[Montalban]

This conversations really gets old.
During the dark ages and I assume before them; a girls was married off at the first sign of menstruation. It is no secret that girls were married off to other Italian families to keep ties together. (and this near the vatican… ) It is just the way it was. It was normal to them. They were not pedophiles ; they did what was normal to them. You cannot judge them by 2007 standards. This was a normal for their socity not ours.
Thankfully girls have more of a childhood but sadly it still happens. In many LDC.

These apologies of yours are really old.

It misses the point that people who did wrong in the Middle Ages are not our role models. Muhammed is Islam’s role model. What he did is approved by them

The fact King John (of England) married a 13 year old is irrelevant to my personal beliefs because I am not a “Johnite”. I am a Christian.

Moslems today are still marrying children.

 

[Montalban]

Not true…

Read “Woman on the 15th century”
any western civ book. (college level)

“The faith of men”

“Renaissance revealed” olderbook
and the list goes on…

Where do these books say “This is behaviour you must follow today?”

Islam still follows Muhammed’s example

You certainly missed the point!

 

[strngrnrth]

It looks as if historians differ on what thousands of Christians and self-proclaimed Christians have done. But we know exactly what millions of Muslims do, and we know they have an example of domestic-sexual child enslavement in their “prophet”. Jesus didn’t use anyone for sex – He remained chaste all His life, no matter what He could have been allowed to do. He also took no vengeance on His enemies. He lived a sinless life. He was and is perfect. That is why I follow Him, not the vengeful, child-abusing “prophet” Mohommed.
I know many Muslims are kind people. I just wonder at their choice of founders.

 

[Montalban]

It looks as if historians differ on what thousands of Christians and self-proclaimed Christians have done. But we know exactly what millions of Muslims do, and we know they have an example of domestic-sexual child enslavement in their “prophet”. Jesus didn’t use anyone for sex – He remained chaste all His life, no matter what He could have been allowed to do. He also took no vengeance on His enemies. He lived a sinless life. He was and is perfect. That is why I follow Him, not the vengeful, child-abusing “prophet” Mohommed.
I know many Muslims are kind people. I just wonder at their choice of founders.

Willma and other apologists forget essential details of argument such as who looks to whom as an example.

 

[Scarecrow]

Read the fora. Really. All these points have been answered and answered here.

Obviously not.

 

[Montalban]

Obviously not.

Well you might consider responding to points others have made

Aisha was his favourite wife. You’ve not commented.

Aisha was Muhammad’s favourite wife, and he made exemptions especially for her. For instance, he had banned the use of graven images, but when Aisha was seen playing fondly with her dolls, he made a proclamation that human-like images in the form of dolls were okay.