Age old subject of Eternal Security for non Catholics. Need help refuting

[Loboto-Me]

Ok, I know this is getting old, but for the first time, I’m being called to refute something on facebook. This person had a Sinner’s Prayer posted and said that if it’s recited with faith and with all their heart that we would be saved and live for eternity in heaven.

I usually don’t reply to these types of posts, but when I saw that the prayer posted started by telling Jesus that “I’m not a religious person, but I believe in you” my fingers started to itch and I replyed against my better judgement. I replied that there was a lot more to salvation than reciting a prayer, that Jesus Himself was a religious person, so religion is a good thing and that salvation involves action as well as faith. That we can’t just believe with our head and mouth, that it takes a daily conversion in my faith. I mentioned working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Then I made the horrid mistake of telling this young woman that salvation can be lost!! Oops, that started the ball rolling.

Long story short, I showed passages that show that salvation is not a guaranteed position but it requires cooperation with His gift of salvation.

Well the last thing she typed was huge! I suspected that she must had gotten this from the interweb because it’s just not her style of speech. So I typed in the first few sentences from her reply and what-do-you-know, it is on a webpage. christian-anxiety.forums-free.info/t24-we-cannot-lose-our-salvation

At this point, I just don’t know how to respond to this because I’m in a brain fog. I read it all and my eyes just want to glaze over… I just need your help in refuting it if you don’t mind. I guess I just don’t know where in scripture I can defend each of his (the true author of the post) scriptures and his interpretation of them. Help? Please?

 

[sowinskija]

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-II

 

[capablanca911]

Judas.

 

[Julia_Mae]

So I typed in the first few sentences from her reply and what-do-you-know, it is on a webpage. christian-anxiety.forums-free.info/t24-we-cannot-lose-our-salvation

You tell her if she is going to copy/paste from a website she should give the link or people will mistakenly believe she wrote it. Then post the link. Then tell her Jesus Christ is your Lord, you will believe Him, not some nameless mook online and quote Matthew where He says we will be judged on our works. Then leave and do not return.

And unfriend this person.

 

[pablope]

Ok, I know this is getting old, but for the first time, I’m being called to refute something on facebook. This person had a Sinner’s Prayer posted and said that if it’s recited with faith and with all their heart that we would be saved and live for eternity in heaven.

I usually don’t reply to these types of posts, but when I saw that the prayer posted started by telling Jesus that “I’m not a religious person, but I believe in you” my fingers started to itch and I replyed against my better judgement. I replied that there was a lot more to salvation than reciting a prayer, that Jesus Himself was a religious person, so religion is a good thing and that salvation involves action as well as faith. That we can’t just believe with our head and mouth, that it takes a daily conversion in my faith. I mentioned working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Then I made the horrid mistake of telling this young woman that salvation can be lost!! Oops, that started the ball rolling.

Long story short, I showed passages that show that salvation is not a guaranteed position but it requires cooperation with His gift of salvation.

Well the last thing she typed was huge! I suspected that she must had gotten this from the interweb because it’s just not her style of speech. So I typed in the first few sentences from her reply and what-do-you-know, it is on a webpage. christian-anxiety.forums-free.info/t24-we-cannot-lose-our-salvation

At this point, I just don’t know how to respond to this because I’m in a brain fog. I read it all and my eyes just want to glaze over… I just need your help in refuting it if you don’t mind. I guess I just don’t know where in scripture I can defend each of his (the true author of the post) scriptures and his interpretation of them. Help? Please?

Go to Biblechristiansociety.com…ran by John Martinogni. He has material to refute OSAS.

biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=49

Also…the journal on salfvation and justification is a great read…contrasting protestant and catholic posiitions by former protestants…chnetwork.org/resources/coming-home-journals/

 

[runningdude]

Evangelical Christians see the Catholic Church as “religious”, meaning that our beliefs are highly structured. This is not a technically incorrect, as even we Catholics use this term to describe the highly structured life of monks and nuns in religious orders.

Where we would see being “religious” as following God, they see it as following rituals instead of following God. Thus being “religious” is a bad thing .

 

[Maria1993]

This may not be info, but my 2 cents:

When My anxiety, scruples/ocd were HIGH, and the fear of the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit tormented me, I would pray that ‘sinners prayer’ ( I think about 1 or 2 times, can’t really remember) looking for a feeling of being safe, and I never felt fulfilled.

My Catholic religion and the Lord, along with the Heavens got me through. Confession got me through, communion nourished my soul (even though I didn’t feel it)

It takes more then just some words. We should pray with all our hearts, but every day! Not just in one moment to be saved. We need to preservere till the end to be saved.

God Bless, and may the Lord guide you.

 

[Loboto-Me]

I would never unfriend her. I’m the one who responded to her post and we’re not fighting so much as having a difference in theology.
Thank you for the directions to where I should go with this… I suppose it means that I’ll have to do more reading
I think I’ll have to print out her page reply and try to find within the sites that were suggested, the answers to that long long post she put forth. One objection at a time… loads of coffee will be needed.
Deep apologetics are just not my forte. I’m more of a quick reply, here’s where I stand, here’s why I stand and so I find that this is more like having a whole side of beef on my plate rather than a nice little filet mignon.

 

[thenobes]

Ok, I know this is getting old, but for the first time, I’m being called to refute something on facebook. This person had a Sinner’s Prayer posted and said that if it’s recited with faith and with all their heart that we would be saved and live for eternity in heaven.

I usually don’t reply to these types of posts, but when I saw that the prayer posted started by telling Jesus that “I’m not a religious person, but I believe in you” my fingers started to itch and I replyed against my better judgement. I replied that there was a lot more to salvation than reciting a prayer, that Jesus Himself was a religious person, so religion is a good thing and that salvation involves action as well as faith. That we can’t just believe with our head and mouth, that it takes a daily conversion in my faith. I mentioned working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Then I made the horrid mistake of telling this young woman that salvation can be lost!! Oops, that started the ball rolling.

Long story short, I showed passages that show that salvation is not a guaranteed position but it requires cooperation with His gift of salvation.

Well the last thing she typed was huge! I suspected that she must had gotten this from the interweb because it’s just not her style of speech. So I typed in the first few sentences from her reply and what-do-you-know, it is on a webpage. christian-anxiety.forums-free.info/t24-we-cannot-lose-our-salvation

At this point, I just don’t know how to respond to this because I’m in a brain fog. I read it all and my eyes just want to glaze over… I just need your help in refuting it if you don’t mind. I guess I just don’t know where in scripture I can defend each of his (the true author of the post) scriptures and his interpretation of them. Help? Please?

I looked at the forum you listed and the poster’s main argument involves:

Ephesians 1:13, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.” So he is talking to Christians. It continues, “Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

Note the portion I highlighted. I examined his argument and I believe that he evades the possiblility that one might not always remain in God’s possession. That is, that one might willingly break the covenant between himself and God, separating himself from those whom God possesses.

If you examine John 6, you will find a similar possibility when you examine Jesus’s statements. Jesus says that all who are drawn to Him by the Father will come to Him, and that those who are in His hand will not be cast out. However, this does not mean that one cannot leave Jesus’s hand once there, or that the Father will necessarily draw one back once one leaves.

peace
steve

 

[Loboto-Me]

Thank you Steve! Now I have a starting point. This is such a relief to me… I was looking, and like that side of beef, I just didn’t know where to start.

 

[thenobes]

Thank you Steve! Now I have a starting point. This is such a relief to me… I was looking, and like that side of beef, I just didn’t know where to start.

You’re welcome. I continued looking at the fellow’s post and he seems to mean well, but is just mistaken. An error in the beginning is an error indeed, a St Thomas Aquinas said.

In the gospel of John, Jesus tells us we must remain in the vine. If not we will be pruned off and branches left on the ground will be gathered and burnt.

in John 6

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

But they may leave of their own accord.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Although this is the Father’s will, it is a subjunctive, not an indicative, verb. Thus it is something the Father wants, like all should obey Him (but which does not necessarily happen due to man’s free will).

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again the will of the father is expressed as a subjuctive, a possibilty desired by God, not as an irrefutable event that will occur.

Also John 10

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

But they may walk out by themselves.

The point is that nobody can pull us from God, but if we don’t keep our focus on God, maintain faith, we may walk off toward those things that we do have our attention on.

peace
steve