Agnostic Catholic

[ApostolicZealot]

Hello, I am new to this forum and in the process of becoming Catholic. I had been confident in defending the beliefs of the Church to others and was deeply interested in and enthusiastic about theology. Despite this, I never developed any form of spirituality or felt the presence of Christ. Half-jokingly, I describe myself as “religious, but not spiritual.” In the debates between staunch theists and staunch atheists, neither can ever prove their acceptance or rejection of the existence of God. Theistic arguments often rely upon personal experiences that I can never relate to, and atheistic arguments depend on a purely naturalist/materialist perspective on the world that forces moral relativism. The Catechism says that human reason can prove the existence of God, how? I have not lost my faith, yet I am being pushed towards an agnostic form of Catholicism. The “I don’t know” option in regards to absolute truths seems more intellectually honest and defensible than anything else. I fear that my Catholicism is based on an appreciation of the liturgy and a strong agreement with the social and economic positions of the Church more than an actual devotion. I am looking for methods to discover God, information about the cosmological arguments, and encouragement.

Peace,
Simon

 

[Theo520]

Something that helped me was reading up on the theory of Stages Of Faith by James Fowler. I never felt like the Holy Spirit was deep within me but I had a strong affinity for the Church and it’s teachings. This framework helped me see a path for myself going forward, since I didn’t think I could return to my faith as a child.

I liked the way Scott Peck simplified it

http://www.whale.to/b/peck1.html

 

[giuseppe96]

Try looking into Catholic philosophy. The biggest arguments for God’s existence come from St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. I highly suggest you look into them.

 

[fhansen]

Well, honesty is the best place to start in any case-God knows where we are in terms of our faith anyway. To say, “I don’t know” already indicates more knowledge than to say “I know”, when we really don’t. And from that standpoint we can ask, seek, knock; we can pray. We can cultivate the humility to pray if we lack enough to muster ourselves to it. Read the bible. The “knowledge of God” is more than head or intellectual knowledge-it’s direct understanding. Faith, itself, is said to be that knowledge, a dim foretaste of the Beatific Vision, the immediate knowledge of God. In any case, He can prove Himself to us directly and personally and satisfactorily even as the possibility of doubt never leaves completely in this life. Anyway humility is the key. Knowledge, itself, “puffs up” as 1 Cor 8:1 tells us.
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." Heb 11:6

 

[ApostolicZealot]

That was very informative, and I will certainly look into Dr. Peck’s ideas further. I can see myself as a morally contradictory Protestant during Stage I, transitioning into an arrogant convert for Stage II, and now having reached the skeptical phase of Stage III. Mysticism is something I have not looked into much, but might be helpful in confronting my doubts.

 

[Theo520]

the way scott put stuff helped me understand and accept people at different stages.

For example, people described by Stage 2 are very black/white in their beliefs, which rubbed me the wrong way. I have much more of a logical mind.(stage 3ish). This opened me up to the idea that their more ‘fundamentalist’ approach was what they needed, nothing was wrong with it and I didn’t have to become like them if I was going to pursue spirituality in the Church.

From my memory
Stage 1 - very self centered, like a child
Stage 2 - very rules focused, black & white on right and wrong, no grey areas
Stage 3 - scientific/analytical. Church loses many people at this stage to athieism.
Stage 4 - very communal.accepts the grey areas and works with it.

 

[ericc]

The Catechism says that human reason can prove the existence of God, how? I have not lost my faith, yet I am being pushed towards an agnostic form of Catholicism. The “I don’t know” option in regards to absolute truths seems more intellectually honest and defensible than anything else. I fear that my Catholicism is based on an appreciation of the liturgy and a strong agreement with the social and economic positions of the Church more than an actual devotion. I am looking for methods to discover God, information about the cosmological arguments, and encouragement.

I find Peter Kreeft’s talks a good source.

7 reasons why he is Catholic.

His conversion.

Don’t worry about the feeling of spirituality bit. Not everyone can sense it. Kreeft in one of his talks that who received the Eucharist don’t usually get a mystic high - so that you won’t develop a sweet tooth or addiction.

 

[Vico]

…
The Catechism says that human reason can prove the existence of God, how? …

Catechism

36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason."11 Without this capacity, man would not be able to welcome God’s revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created “in the image of God”.12

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:

Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13

38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God’s revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also “about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error”. 14

11 Vatican Council I, Dei Filius 2S 3004; cf. 3026; Vatican Council II, Dei Verbum 6.
12 Cf. Gen 1:27.
13 Pius XII, Humani generis, 561S 3875.
14 Pius XII, Humani generis, 561S 3876; cf. Dei Filius 2S 3005; DV 6; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I,1,1.
15 Wis 13:5.

 

[Entwhistler]

Whenever anyone asks me about my belief in God, I always point out Thomas Aquinas’ Argument from Motion as seen in his work the Summa Theologica and the Summa Contra Gentiles. I too have found that trying to convince someone of God’s existence just by telling them how feel isn’t going to cut it. At least for most folks. And to be perfectly honest, God’s existence doesn’t depend on your warm, fuzzy feelings.