Agnus Dei - Text changed in an English version - Need advice please

[Sarabande]

Thank you, everyone, for your replies and encouragement!!! I received a reply saying that the Agnus Dei would be done as written in the music, so I took Mercygate’s advice of bringing it to a personal level. I asked him if I could use the words “Lamb of God” as for me personally and for my prayer I like to try to follow as closely as I could without changing the sacred text of the liturgy. I also noted that I was going with the Redemptionis Sacramentum, to show that it was also not a whim of mine.

Well, we’ll see what happens on Saturday. Thanks again!!!

 

[japhy]

Ah. Yes. “Missa Emmanuel”. The final straw in me leaving a parish one year ago this coming Sunday.

Oh, geez. The parish I run a Bible Study at on Wednesday evenings… their choir is rehearsing the Missa Emmanuel. Oh well.

 

[benedictgal]

Oh, geez. The parish I run a Bible Study at on Wednesday evenings… their choir is rehearsing the Missa Emmanuel. Oh well.

Offer it up as a sacrifice. It will count towards alleviating your purgatory.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The links in japhy’s post led me to a more specific prohibition from the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM):

1. It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.

I guess it doesn’t get much clearer than that.

What that says is that you can’t chant In Paradisum on All Soul’s day in place of the Agnus Dei. There is silence on tropes.

A question: If tropes are not allowed, why do hymnals publish them WITH THE APPROVAL of the bishops that appears in the front of the hymnal?

 

[Sarabande]

Update: My director was totally fine with me using only the “Lamb of God” text. He told me that he didn’t have the music with him and had forgotten that it had the substitutes, but said that for other masses he didn’t allow the other texts as well, so it was fine.Yay! Thanks for everyone’s help.

 

[benedictgal]

What that says is that you can’t chant In Paradisum on All Soul’s day in place of the Agnus Dei. There is silence on tropes.

A question: If tropes are not allowed, why do hymnals publish them WITH THE APPROVAL of the bishops that appears in the front of the hymnal?

Who is publishing the hymnal you are referencing? I have looked at the recent hymnals from OCP and GIA and have not found approval for things. I have yet to see an Adoremus hymnal, but they seem to be pretty consistent.

Please don’t think I’m doubting you on this one, but I am curious.

Sarabande, congratulations!!!

 

[mercygate]

Update: My director was totally fine with me using only the “Lamb of God” text. He told me that he didn’t have the music with him and had forgotten that it had the substitutes, but said that for other masses he didn’t allow the other texts as well, so it was fine.Yay! Thanks for everyone’s help.

Can it be that the forces of light are gaining on the forces of darkness? Praise the Lord. Literally.

 

[Phemie]

Who is publishing the hymnal you are referencing? I have looked at the recent hymnals from OCP and GIA and have not found approval for things. I have yet to see an Adoremus hymnal, but they seem to be pretty consistent.

Please don’t think I’m doubting you on this one, but I am curious.

Sarabande, congratulations!!!

The Catholic Book of Worship III, published by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, includes “Mass of Creation” by Haugen with tropes for the Agnus Dei. That composer also changed the words of the Sanctus and added to the Gospel Acclamation but we fall all over ourselves to sing that Mass.

I’d rather sing “(New) Good Shepherd Mass” every Sunday than listen to Mass of Creation once.

 

[benedictgal]

The Catholic Book of Worship III, published by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, includes “Mass of Creation” by Haugen with tropes for the Agnus Dei. That composer also changed the words of the Sanctus and added to the Gospel Acclamation but we fall all over ourselves to sing that Mass.

I’d rather sing “(New) Good Shepherd Mass” every Sunday than listen to Mass of Creation once.

I can somewhat tolerate Haugen’s Sanctus (but, he does add “God of power, God of might” from the Mass of Creation, and, even his responsorial Gloria (because the words are retained). What I refuse to sing is the Agnus Dei from the Mass of Creation. The tropes are in direct violation of what the GIRM stipulates.

Unfortunately, the problem with Haugen is that he is, from what I underatand, Protestant. This is perhaps why he doesn’t seem to think that it matters much that he’s not following the rubrics or norms. It also explains why some of his music (Gather Us In, We Remember, etc) has some questionable doctrinal issues to it. “Not in some heaven, light years away” seems to reject the notion that the Mass is our preparation for the Eternal Banquet.

Haugen’s Mass of Creation Agnus Dei was the piece that I did not want to sing during the Feast of the Assumption precisely because it violates the GIRM.

 

[mercygate]

I can somewhat tolerate Haugen’s Sanctus (but, he does add “God of power, God of might” from the Mass of Creation, and, even his responsorial Gloria (because the words are retained). What I refuse to sing is the Agnus Dei from the Mass of Creation. The tropes are in direct violation of what the GIRM stipulates.

Unfortunately, the problem with Haugen is that he is, from what I underatand, Protestant. This is perhaps why he doesn’t seem to think that it matters much that he’s not following the rubrics or norms. It also explains why some of his music (Gather Us In, We Remember, etc) has some questionable doctrinal issues to it. “Not in some heaven, light years away” seems to reject the notion that the Mass is our preparation for the Eternal Banquet.

Haugen’s Mass of Creation Agnus Dei was the piece that I did not want to sing during the Feast of the Assumption precisely because it violates the GIRM.

While I would love to hold Haugen down while you beat him up, I could not in good conscience do it on the grounds that he is Protestant. So was Bach. So were Charles Wesley and Ralph Vaughan-Williams and a whole slew of other Protestant greats who have contributed brilliantly to the corpus of beautiful liturgical music.

Now if you want to beat him up specifically for “Gather Us In” and “Not in Some Heaven,” I’ll sit on his chest for ya.

 

[muledog]

The pertinent paragraphs in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal are 83, which states (in part):

The priest breaks the Bread and puts a piece of the host into the chalice to signify the unity of the Body and Blood of the Lord in the work of salvation, namely, of the living and glorious Body of Jesus Christ. The supplication Agnus Dei, is, as a rule, sung by the choir or cantor with the congregation responding; or it is, at least, recited aloud. This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion, the last time ending with the words dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

and paragraph 366, which - in no uncertain terms - states this:

It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.

The only place specifically approved in the Mass for the use of tropes is at the Kyrie.

A great article to read about this can be found in the Adoremus Bulletin article, “Worthy is the Lamb”.

Sadly, the new USCCB document on Music in Divine Worship approves of the use of tropes in the Agnus Dei (see paragraph 188), just as it’s predecessor, Liturgical Music Today (no. 20), did.

These documents are guidelines only, and were not sent to the Holy See for a recognitio. Of course, neither of these two documents lists any references to a binding document to support their conclusions. This is odd, considering the latest document on Sacred Music has 235 references for only 259 paragraphs in the entire document.

 

[Sarabande]

Thank you again.

Another update - there was a apparently a very heated discussion regarding the Missa Emmanuel being used there and one of the priests in residence absolutely insisted that we not use that mass whenever he is saying the mass. I’m totally fine with that. I don’t think the Sanctus setting works well. To me, if we aren’t going to have the entire Sanctus sung by the congregation, it should only be done by the choir, not just parts of it by the congregation. If we are supposed to have congregation participation of the Sanctus, then I think it should be sung by the congregation in its entirety. I might be totally wrong on that, though. I also didn’t feel comfortable singing parts of it as a solo.

The Agnus Dei did work fine with using only the “Lamb of God…”

 

[lizaanne]

Oh good - so glad you haven’t had to get into some big thing over it and that it’s all working out. It could have very well gone the other way.

~Liza