AIDS in Africa

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aleister

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If the Catholic church is so set against the “culture of death” including euthanasia, abortion etc why is it so against the use of devices which will go a long way to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa?

Is it a case of “the (hiv infected) sperms will create more (hiv infected) life so one AIDS related death is acceptable”? Surely this leads to much more death? Especially when you consider that a large majority of people in Africa aren’t as informed on the subject as we are in the developed world.

I guess what I’m looking for is some kind of justification for what I see as quiet genocide.
 
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aleister:
If the Catholic church is so set against the “culture of death” including euthanasia, abortion etc why is it so against the use of devices which will go a long way to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa?

Is it a case of “the (hiv infected) sperms will create more (hiv infected) life so one AIDS related death is acceptable”? Surely this leads to much more death? Especially when you consider that a large majority of people in Africa aren’t as informed on the subject as we are in the developed world.

I guess what I’m looking for is some kind of justification for what I see as quiet genocide.
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The Catholic Church isn’t as stupid as you think. Condoms do not prevent AIDS. That is an established fact. So, the Church’s opposition to condoms isn’t to say that people who get AIDS deserve to die. In fact, it has nothing to do with prevention os any disease. Check out the Chastity link at the top of the page for more.

To say that the AIDS problem is a quite genocide is very harsh. It is a problem, of course, but to say the Church is reponsible is foolish.
 
Let me see if I understand your position.

The Catholic Church, which categorically rejects the morality of extramarital sex, is responsible for AIDS deaths in Africa because it refuses to endorse the use of condoms by people who engage in behavior which will take them to Hell with or without the AIDS virus?

People who do not care what the Catholic Church says on any subject whatsoever, particularly on the sanctity of their sexuality, are getting AIDS because the Catholic Church does not approve the use of condoms?
 
An empirical response to this argument is to ask those who condem the church’s position to show the link between the church’s influence and people who actually spread the disease through extramarital sex.
  1. Those who endluge in this type of behavior are either not catholic or do not follow the church’s position.
  2. Most nations that have the highest rate of HIV (if not all) have very little if any high percentage of faithfuls; aka, the church’s influence is extremely limited.
It is a categorical imossibility in the eyes of 1. the law and 2. common sense, to place the blame on the Catholic church for the spread of aids. This is simple propaganda, and barely worth replying to if at all.
 
It’s like my bass amplifier. The manual explicitly says to not submerge the amp in water because it is potentially lethal. Somebody decides to submerge it in water, they get electrocuted and die. The surviving family tries to sue the manufacturer for not instructing their dead relative how to submerge his amp in water safely. Of course they have no case because the guy was using it for something it was not designed for.

So it is with the Church. The Church explicitly states that God did not design sex for fornication and sodomy. People do it anyway and die. Now people are whining at the Church for not teaching them how to fornicate and sodomize safely. :rolleyes: They have no case.

Scott
 
Scott Waddell:
It’s like my bass amplifier. The manual explicitly says to not submerge the amp in water because it is potentially lethal. Somebody decides to submerge it in water, they get electrocuted and die. The surviving family tries to sue the manufacturer for not instructing their dead relative how to submerge his amp in water safely. Of course they have no case because the guy was using it for something it was not designed for.

So it is with the Church. The Church explicitly states that God did not design sex for fornication and sodomy. People do it anyway and die. Now people are whining at the Church for not teaching them how to fornicate and sodomize safely. :rolleyes: They have no case.

Scott
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Well said - I am too emotinal to effectively respond to these things. Thank you.
 
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aleister:
I guess what I’m looking for is some kind of justification for what I see as quiet genocide.
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I try to stay informed with developments on the global HIV epidemic. When I first heard of the Church refusing to relax its position on condoms, I was outraged - for much the same reason as yourself.

There are people in the Church who do favor relaxing the prohibition on condoms. Bishop Kevin Dowling, of South Africa, is best known for his vocal opposition. Apparently there are bishops in Brussels, London and Paris who also call for change.

But condoms, in a stable committed relationship, are bound to fail. Its only a matter of time. We can quibble about the exact percentage of effectiveness that condoms have, but in the field it is less than 100%. So if one person in a marriage has HIV, the more often they have sex with their partner, the more likely that the virus will infect the other person. Each time with a condom is merely a toss of the dice, and given enough tosses they will eventually get snake eyes.

The real benefit of condoms have to do with sex between unmarried persons, where the relationship between them is temporary. In this case, when the dice are only tossed a few times, there is a better chance of not getting snake eyes.

But, as you know, the Church has strong teachings against extra-marital sex. We truly expect people not to have sex outside of marriage. If the Church approved the use of condoms, it would be the same thing as if we winked and said “Nobody really expects you to abstain”.

Now, the Church should do something about the HIV problem in Africa. And it should be doing things which make a difference long term, instead of band-aid approaches. Sant’Egidio’s program, which is building health care infrastructure in Mozambique, is one example of a good intervention. It would be nice to hear the Church speak out more on the status of women, and work to make sure that the rights of women are respected and that their economic position is strengthened. Very good things which can be done - things which should be done - without undercutting the teachings of the Church.
 
Guar Fan:
The real benefit of condoms have to do with sex between unmarried persons, where the relationship between them is temporary. In this case, when the dice are only tossed a few times, there is a better chance of not getting snake eyes.

But, as you know, the Church has strong teachings against extra-marital sex. We truly expect people not to have sex outside of marriage. If the Church approved the use of condoms, it would be the same thing as if we winked and said “Nobody really expects you to abstain”.
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On the first point I agree completely because as far as I know the majority of the problem is one night stands etc, people thinking they can get rid of the disease by passing it on to someone else and you’d be mad to do that to someone you love.

The second point there I really think the head honchos in the Vatican really should open their eyes and admit it to the world, they know people won’t abstain, it’s against human nature, in fact I’d probably go as far as to say that whoever built the abstinence concept into the bible wasn’t getting any for a very long time and decided that nobody else should (go on, try to prove me wrong, prove the bible was written by God through man and I’ll believe it).

If the Vatican really want to save lives (what the should be doing) they should be looking at the most realistic and effective options seriously.

On a side note, some of you have probably noticed my posts and are thinking “who’s this guy? what’s his problem and why all the opposing questions?”, well as you might have guessed I’m not Catholic, I’m not even Christian but I do have questions about these topics and about faith, especially blind faith which I really don’t get. So please, bear with me as I try to find some answers to the questions playing on my mind.

Thanks,
A
 
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aleister:
If the Vatican really want to save lives (what the should be doing) they should be looking at the most realistic and effective options seriously.

On a side note, some of you have probably noticed my posts and are thinking “who’s this guy? what’s his problem and why all the opposing questions?”, well as you might have guessed I’m not Catholic, I’m not even Christian but I do have questions about these topics and about faith, especially blind faith which I really don’t get. So please, bear with me as I try to find some answers to the questions playing on my mind.

Thanks,
A
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Hello A; welcome to the forums.

As a non-Christian, you may certainly be confused by some aspects of Church teaching. We’ll try and do our best to explain. Having said that, the Church really is not in the business of saving lives (although She does that as much as She can); the Church is in the “business” of saving souls. As Christians, we believe that there’s more to this life than, well, this life. We hope and pray that we’re heavenward bound, and that truly is the goal of our lives. So the actions that we do in this earthly life have consequences for our eternal life. This brings in a whole host of topics, but that would get us off topic. As to the original post, it seems silly for the Church to endorse an activity (condom usage) that not only will not stop disease (condom proponents notwithstanding) and will endanger the soul of the user (by the sin of artificial birth control). Now you may wonder why ABC, as it’s called, is a sin; we can get into that if you like.

As an aside, the Church does not call us to “blind faith,” to use your term. One of the principal elements of being a good Catholic is to use our brains and consciences (properly formed, of course). Faith and reason complement each other, and we are called to grow in both.

Again, welcome!
CathChemNerd
 
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aleister:
On the first point I agree completely because as far as I know the majority of the problem is one night stands etc, people thinking they can get rid of the disease by passing it on to someone else and you’d be mad to do that to someone you love.
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Ok.
The second point there I really think the head honchos in the Vatican really should open their eyes and admit it to the world, they know people won’t abstain, it’s against human nature, in fact I’d probably go as far as to say that whoever built the abstinence concept into the bible wasn’t getting any for a very long time and decided that nobody else should (go on, try to prove me wrong, prove the bible was written by God through man and I’ll believe it).
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The problem is none of the above is true. The Vatican does not have its eyes closed. It’s not against human nature, and there is no reason to believe the authors of Scripture were laboring under sexual frustration. These are your charges therefore you must prove them.
If the Vatican really want to save lives (what the should be doing) they should be looking at the most realistic and effective options seriously.
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They do and they see the great lie that is safe sex. And in any case (I think someone may have pointed out) if someone is not going to listen to the Church regarding fornication and sodomy, why on earth would they listen to them regarding contraception?
 
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aleister:
If the Catholic church is so set against the “culture of death” including euthanasia, abortion etc why is it so against the use of devices which will go a long way to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa?

I guess what I’m looking for is some kind of justification for what I see as quiet genocide.
Click to expand...
because condoms have not been proven to halt the spread of HIV and AIDS, in fact African countries with an abstinence education policy have been far more successful than those where official policy is to distribute condoms. An official government policy that promotes artificial birth control, sexual promiscuity and abortion as solutions to illness and other social ills is de facto genocide against its own people.
 
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aleister:
If the Catholic church is so set against the “culture of death” including euthanasia, abortion etc why is it so against the use of devices which will go a long way to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa?
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“Devices” do nothing to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS. Adherence to church teaching can totally eradicate it: chasity before marriage and fidelity in marriage.

The Catholic Church teaches the truth: contraception is immoral. The Church can only teach the truth, people can choose to ignore it. The Church cannot teach sin, as it is not the way to life but the way to eternal death.
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aleister:
Is it a case of “the (hiv infected) sperms will create more (hiv infected) life so one AIDS related death is acceptable”? Surely this leads to much more death? Especially when you consider that a large majority of people in Africa aren’t as informed on the subject as we are in the developed world.
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Chastity and fidelity are certainties. The Church teaches the truth.

Condoms do not prevent AIDS. Condoms merely play the odds-- maybe you’ll be one of the % that gets it, maybe you won’t. That is not compassion, that is cruel.
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aleister:
I guess what I’m looking for is some kind of justification for what I see as quiet genocide.
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People choose to sin. Death comes from that choice. The Church teaches the way to Life. The Church teaches the truth.
 
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aleister:
The second point there I really think the head honchos in the Vatican really should open their eyes and admit it to the world, they know people won’t abstain, it’s against human nature, in fact I’d probably go as far as to say that whoever built the abstinence concept into the bible wasn’t getting any for a very long time and decided that nobody else should (go on, try to prove me wrong, prove the bible was written by God through man and I’ll believe it).
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Clearly you do not believe in God’s authorship of life or the world, nor his dominion over it.

Well, again, the Church can only teach the Truth and the truth is that fornication and contraception are both mortally sinful.

Of course it is not against human nature to abstain. Men are rational creatures, not animals with not control over themselves. And, in Christ our sinful nature is redeemed and we are called to be witnesses to the Truth.
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aleister:
If the Vatican really want to save lives (what the should be doing) they should be looking at the most realistic and effective options seriously.
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The Church is concerned with people’s eternal destination first and foremost. The Church will always teach the Truth. People can choose to accept or reject the Truth. The Church cannot, in fact, teach anything BUT the truth. Therefore, they cannot teach the lie that condoms are acceptable.

Church cannot teach error.
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aleister:
On a side note, some of you have probably noticed my posts and are thinking “who’s this guy? what’s his problem and why all the opposing questions?”, well as you might have guessed I’m not Catholic, I’m not even Christian but I do have questions about these topics and about faith, especially blind faith which I really don’t get. So please, bear with me as I try to find some answers to the questions playing on my mind.
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The Church does not teach on the principle of blind faith. There are volumes and volumes of writings on the Church’s teachings on this and every subject.
 
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1ke:
Condoms do not prevent AIDS. Condoms merely play the odds-- maybe you’ll be one of the % that gets it, maybe you won’t. That is not compassion, that is cruel.
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To expand on 1ke’s point: start asking sexually-active people hypothetically if they would still have sex with someone they knew had AIDS using a condom. I would suggest most will say no. It is the height of obscenity to refuse to do something risky but recommend that “those people” in Africa do it.
 
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aleister:
If the Catholic church is so set against the “culture of death” including euthanasia, abortion etc why is it so against the use of devices which will go a long way to preventing the spread of AIDS in Africa?

Is it a case of “the (hiv infected) sperms will create more (hiv infected) life so one AIDS related death is acceptable”? Surely this leads to much more death? Especially when you consider that a large majority of people in Africa aren’t as informed on the subject as we are in the developed world.

I guess what I’m looking for is some kind of justification for what I see as quiet genocide.
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Genocide is when you intentionally set about killing a group of people. When people engage in risky sexual behaviors, they endanger themselves. You should be careful where you place the blame because these people are responsible for their own actions. That’s what being a mature human being is all about.
Your next problem is that you blame the Church for their lack of condom use, thus the spread of AIDS. Well, if these people followed Church teaching, they would abstain from risky sexual behaviors, not need condoms, and not end up with AIDS. You can’t have it both ways. Don’t listen to the media without double checking their logic arguments; their bias is deep and unyielding.
Furthermore, if you had done any research on this subject, you would see that anywhere condoms are promoted in lieu of abstinence only, AIDS actually goes up. In Uganda where the Church teaching of abstinence was heavily promoted, we saw the only declining numbers of HIV infection in Africa. Abstinence works.
Furthermore, sex is not a right, it is a privilege. If sex were a right, then rape would not be a crime. When you engage in risky sexual behaviors and become infected with a fatal disease, you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to endanger the lives of others by spreading this disease to them. Condoms fail. The only way to 100% guarantee you will not KILL someone is to NOT have sex with them. In our oversexed culture, we often see a life of abstinence as worse than death. It’s not. Anyone who has watched someone in Africa die of AIDS without the benefit of western medical technology and pills knows there are things worse than a life lived chastely.
Now what was your argument again?
 
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Zachary:
Well said - I am too emotinal to effectively respond to these things. Thank you.
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I am in the same boat as you. That’s why I love this site & forums, great answers and great help when required and desired! 👍 🙂
 
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