All are given the Spirit of Interpretation

[Aussieman88]

Sorry small point Paul did not learn from the Apostles. He didn’t meet them untill he had been teaching for 12 years. I don’t want them to eat you because of that.

 

[Gorgias]

Sorry small point Paul did not learn from the Apostles. He didn’t meet them untill he had been teaching for 12 years. I don’t want them to eat you because of that.

Hmm. Help me understand the timeline you’re asserting. I’m scratching my head, because in Galatians, Paul says, “But when [God]… was pleased to reveal his Son to me,… I did not immediately consult flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; rather, I went into Arabia and then returned to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days.” (Gal 1:15-18)

So, it would seem that Paul did consult with Peter after three years, not twelve; and those three years weren’t spent in the ministry that we know of, but in time in Arabia and Damascus, prior to beginning his ministry…

 

[clem456]

Sorry small point Paul did not learn from the Apostles. He didn’t meet them untill he had been teaching for 12 years. I don’t want them to eat you because of that.

?

Saul’s Conversion

1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

13“Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has **sent me **so that **you may see **again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem

Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.
…
.

edit:
I see your distinction between apostles and disciples. But the text makes it even clearer that Paul is helpless without the Church. Ananias is not an apostle, but even so, Paul is subject to his ministry. Ananias confers the Holy Spirit on him.
Interesting… in that an encounter with the risen Christ Himself is not the full extent of his coming to the faith. Submission to the Church is necessary. That is a real fly in the ointment for anyone indifferent to the Church.

 

[nickybr38]

Thank you everyone. Lots of good points in here.

This particular woman is someone I have been working with for years. She does not believe in the Trinity (because it’s not Scriptural), does not believe in infant baptism, does not believe in Purgatory, does not believe in the Pope, does not believe in praying to the Saints, etc. etc. She is continually trying to ‘trick’ me into realizing the errors of the Catholic Church by using Scripture.

And that’s how we’ve ended up here. I continually direct her to the Church, the Catechism and point out continually that her interpretations are not necessarily correct until she finally exploded and informed me that we are ALL guided to truth in the Holy Spirit and she can correctly interpret all of Scripture without any help.

I thought, initially, it was a blow up out of frustration but she is sticking to it and so we are continuing the debate.

I meet with her this afternoon for another ‘session’ so I will take the new ideas you guys shared and see how it goes.

 

[humble_catholic]

It is also important to read the early apostolic fathers like clement of Rome , Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp to understand what the earliest Christians were taught to believe by the apostles (their teachers), about church hierarchy, the eucharist etc etc.
It is clear from the writings of Ignatius in 110 ad that he believed in the eucharist as the flesh of our lord and savior. ignatius was a student of Saint John the apostle.

 

[humble_catholic]

Thank you everyone. Lots of good points in here.

This particular woman is someone I have been working with for years. She does not believe in the Trinity (because it’s not Scriptural), does not believe in infant baptism, does not believe in Purgatory, does not believe in the Pope, does not believe in praying to the Saints, etc. etc. She is continually trying to ‘trick’ me into realizing the errors of the Catholic Church by using Scripture.

And that’s how we’ve ended up here. I continually direct her to the Church, the Catechism and point out continually that her interpretations are not necessarily correct until she finally exploded and informed me that we are ALL guided to truth in the Holy Spirit and she can correctly interpret all of Scripture without any help.

I thought, initially, it was a blow up out of frustration but she is sticking to it and so we are continuing the debate.

I meet with her this afternoon for another ‘session’ so I will take the new ideas you guys shared and see how it goes.

Ask her one simple question.
Who had the authority to determine which books would be included in the bible and which weren’t?
And when was the canon of the original bible determined?

The bible was put together in the beginning of the 5th century by the Catholic Church.

 

[nickybr38]

Ask her one simple question.
Who had the authority to determine which books would be included in the bible and which weren’t?
And when was the canon of the original bible determined?

The bible was put together in the beginning of the 5th century by the Catholic Church.

I have levied this question to her before.

Her response was that the Holy Spirit guided holy men to guard and keep the Bible but that the Church later fell into error.

So essentially the Holy Spirit stayed with the Church just long enough to ensure the Bible was correctly set together and then the Holy Spirit left the Church because the men were too corrupt.

 

[clem456]

I have levied this question to her before.

Her response was that the Holy Spirit guided holy men to guard and keep the Bible but that the Church later fell into error.
So essentially the Holy Spirit stayed with the Church just long enough to ensure the Bible was correctly set together and then the Holy Spirit left the Church because the men were too corrupt.

She does not believe that any corporate body is continually guided by the Holy Spirit.
Then she necessarily believes in personal revelation, no way around it. Which opens up a huge can of worms.
Then Joseph Smith is right, Jim Jones is right, David Koresh is right, etc etc etc…
If you don’t believe that Christ instituted a Church, continually guided by the Holy Spirit, then you have indifferentism. Everyone is right. And that can’t be possible.

Even our Lord himself learned and quoted scriptures that were composed by inspired individuals and kept sacred by a people through their traditions. If Jesus himself immerses himself in this human/divine mix, who are we to reject it in favor of our own whims?
Are we above our Lord in obedience?

 

[DavidFilmer]

If she is correct, how does she explain differing interpretations by the one and only Holy Spirit?

In other words, if every human read the exact same scriptures and was lead by the same Holy Spirit, everybody would have the same interpretation…

Exactly.

I would also like to know where the Bible says we are promised this gift.

 

[Aussieman88]

The ‘Gift of Interpretation’ is interpreting languages be they other worldly languages or angelic or heavenly. This gift does not relate to interpreting the the bible. Interpreting the bible in a supernatural way comes by revelation when you are reading it seems to come alive and you get a spiritual understanding accompanied by that awesome feeling of God’s presence followed by a feeling of pure peace.

I don’t know the quote about Paul meeting any of the 12 apostles but it was 12 years later and yes I’m talking about the 12 apostles not anyone else. It says he went to Jerusalem by revelation, preached to them what he had been preaching and they approved of what he said with the addition of taking care of the elderly. Paul had numerous numerous visitations from Jesus teaching him the Gospels.

 

[steve_b]

I have levied this question to her before.

Her response was that the Holy Spirit guided holy men to guard and keep the Bible but that the Church later fell into error.

So essentially the Holy Spirit stayed with the Church just long enough to ensure the Bible was correctly set together and then the Holy Spirit left the Church because the men were too corrupt.

Paul predicted this of your friend.

2 Tim 4: 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

Jesus said the following about the HS

Jn 14:
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jn 16:
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Your friend doesn’t begin to grasp her own errors. Which means the HS isn’t the one leading her.

• Jesus isn’t going to abandon His Church that he established and died for.
• The HS isn’t going to abandon the Church Jesus established and gave all His promises to.
• And the HS isn’t going to take from Jesus what your friend invents. He’s not the author of all that confusion and myth, Satan is

If your friend continues on her path, resisting truth and embracing myths, the only thing you can do for her is pray. I’ve had friends like this in the past. We’re no longer friends, but I still pray for their souls.

 

[clem456]

Good post Steve. The objection that Protestants will come up with is to agree with you, BUT say that the Church does not have a defined corporate body. In other words, all believers constitute the church. This is a tough one to overcome.

I just try to point that starting with the Jews, there has been a specific people, or a specific human structure to our faith. It is not simply spiritualized faith with no visibility. Jesus does not become part of just any people, he is a Jew, and so founds a Church with some specific tradition going back, and continuing forward. Protestants believe all of this is just random, that there is no specific purpose behind giving Peter authority, or picking a collection of specific disciples etc…it is all smoothed out by just having faith.

 

[zz912]

St. Paul is pretty clear, that not all Christians have been given the same gifts. Some are teachers, some are workers, some are Apostles, others given the gift of prophesy, others the gift of speaking in tongues.

She needs to provide some support for this claim that is blatantly contrary to what St. Paul taught.

 

[humble_catholic]

I have levied this question to her before.

Her response was that the Holy Spirit guided holy men to guard and keep the Bible but that the Church later fell into error.

So essentially the Holy Spirit stayed with the Church just long enough to ensure the Bible was correctly set together and then the Holy Spirit left the Church because the men were too corrupt.

Sounds like a Holy Spirit that visits and leaves for hundreds of years
Christ said that the gates of hades shall not prevail over this church.
Call me crazy but I think I will take the word of God