All Catholics Doctrines Derives From Scripture?

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It is claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. That is, that all Catholic beliefs are derived from Scripture, and that the foundation of all beliefs can be found either ***explicitly or implictly ***in the Bible.

So I’d like to know the Scriptural basis for the following beliefs:
  1. Mary - the Mediatrix of all Graces
  2. That the unitive and procreative act cannot be separated (contraception)
  3. the Assumption of Mary into Heaven
  4. Intercessory prayer
  5. Sacramentals
  6. Indulgences
  7. A mortal sin cutting us off from God’s Grace, and what that means exactly.
Just for the record, I “swam the Tiber” (became Catholic) this year, so many of these I believe with child-like faith. I’m definitely starting this thread for educational purposes only.

God Bless
 
Crikey, you’re saying I have to do work? Thanks for the links. 🙂
 
davidarlette said:
It is claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. That is, that all Catholic beliefs are derived from Scripture, and that the foundation of all beliefs can be found either ***explicitly or implictly ***in the Bible.
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First off, this is false. Catholic beliefs aren’t necessarily based on the Bible. The Church was doing most of what it is doing right now long before a single document of the New Testament was written. Nearly everything you mentioned can be found in the Bible, but we don’t do it because it is IN the Bible.
davidarlette said:
  1. Sacramentals
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I thought it would be fun to tackle this one in particular. Does God work through matter? The answer is yes. Matter and Spirit are found all throughout the Bible. We humans are matter (body) and spirit (soul). The Church as the Mystical Body of Christ is also matter (visible) and spirit (invisible). The same goes for the Sacraments. For example in baptism we have matter (water) and spirit (the Holy Spirit - a person of the Trinity Himself).

Here are some more explicit mentions of God using matter in ways as a sacramental (or comperable):

Exodus 17:5-6 - God works through Moses’ staff to give the people water. Yes, God could have provided them with water in some other way, but chose to do it through Moses’ staff.

2 Kings 2:8 - Elijah could have prayed to God, and the waters would have parted, but instead God worked through Elijah’s mantle (coat).

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul blesses handkerchiefs that aid people in need of deliverance.

This is a small hand full. Similar situations and instances occur all over the Bible.
 
davidarlette said:
So I’d like to know the Scriptural basis for the following beliefs:
  1. Mary - the Mediatrix of all Graces
  2. That the unitive and procreative act cannot be separated (contraception)
  3. the Assumption of Mary into Heaven
  4. Intercessory prayer
  5. Sacramentals
  6. Indulgences
  7. A mortal sin cutting us off from God’s Grace, and what that means exactly…God Bless
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One thing to remember is the Church predates Sacred Scripture, and operated well for the first 300 to 400 years before the Bible was assembled by the Church in the Canon of Holy Scripture. You are right, no Catholic doctrine conflicts with Scripture, but not all doctrine is explicitly written out in Scripture. Best examples are the Trinity, the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Canon of Holy Scripture itself, (the Bible didn’t just fall from the sky with an index included).

Real quickly on your questions:
  1. Mary is the Co-Mediatrix of all Graces, with God as the source, Mary cooperated with God in the Incarnation of Jesus the Savior and deserves this credit, but we realize she is not the “source” of any grace, which is God alone.
  2. From the earliest times in Christianity the Church has taught the evil of killing infants, which was allowed and even celebrated in some cultures then and even now. Additionally regarding sex, if has always taught that sex was designed by God to procreate the human race, not to provide recreation and enjoyment for participants. That is something we have learned to do ourselves, misusing what God has created. Artificial contraception has always been evil in Church teaching, and interestingly was also the teaching of all mainline protestant churches until the 1930s. Again it is something we humans have figured out to contravien God’s plan for humans, and especially today many chemical contraceptives can become and and sometimes are the cause of abortion, not the “prevention of conception”. None the less they are all devices humans use to block God’s design for humans.
  3. Throughout Church history Mary has been held in the highest regard, based on Scripture and Tradition. We all know she was special, and was not just a throwaway vessel used by God and castoff. The doctrine of Mary’s assumption, body and soul into heaven is not explicit in scripture, but there are other examples of special people to God who have been assumed that are explicit therein. Also remember the Holy Spirit guides the Church and protects her form teaching error.
  4. Intersessory prayer came primarily from our Jewish ancestors and can be found refered to in the Book of Maccabees. Also remember that those believed to be in Heaven are still alive, they are not dead and gone. They remain our family and friends and should be sought out for our help in our prayer to God. Scripture does not tell us we are wasting our time, nor does the Church teach that we must ask those in heaven to interceed for us, we can go it alone if we want to.
  5. Sacramentals are simply things that remind us of God or saintly people whose example we should follow. They are not substitutes for them, they are just like family photos used for our benefit. Sacramentals are not dogma, they are what is called “disciplines” ot things done, not doctrine believed.
  6. Indulgences stem from Jesus granting authority to the Apostles when He said “What ever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven”. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18 ) The Church teaching on indulgences was never ever that they granted forgivness of sins, but only the remission of some or all of the effect of our sins that must be removed from our souls before our entrance into heaven. So indulgences are linked to purgatory, a doctrine you did not mention in your list.
  7. Mortal Sin, is explicit in Scripture: 2 Peter 2:20-21 “For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.” Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” (Also see the Sin Unto Death in 1st John 5:16-17.)
Please don’t fall into the trap of Sola Scriptura, that isn’t in the Bible either!

God Bless and Welcome Home!
 
davidarlette said:
It is claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. That is, that all Catholic beliefs are derived from Scripture, and that the foundation of all beliefs can be found either ***explicitly or implictly ***in the Bible.
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it would be more accurate to say that the Scriptures are based upon Catholic teaching, which existed for several decades before the first word of the New Testament was even written down - Jesus died, rose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven in 33 AD, but St. Paul did not begin to write his letters until around 50 AD, and the writings of the Apostles were not completed until 95 AD.

Just because certain things were not included in the Scriptures does not mean that they weren’t part of the original deposit of the faith, since the purpose of the Scriptures was not to document all of the teachings of the Church, but rather, to tell the story of Jesus and the Apostles, and how they founded and established the Church.

We actually didn’t have the document that we today refer to as “the Bible” until 405 AD, when Pope Innocent I established the list, or canon, of the books that were to be included in it.
 
davidarlette said:
So I’d like to know the Scriptural basis for the following beliefs:
  1. That the unitive and procreative act cannot be separated (contraception)
God Bless
Click to expand...
In the OT pagans sacrificed their children to the idol god Moloch not unlike abortions for the cause of the idol god materialism.

Leviticus 18:21. Thou shalt not give any of thy seed to be consecrated to the idol Moloch, nor defile the name of thy God. I am the Lord.

20:2. Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: If any man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, give of his seed to the idol Moloch, dying let him die. The people of the land shall stone him.

20:3. And I will set my face against him: and I will cut him off from the midst of his people, because he hath given of his seed to Moloch, and hath defiled my sanctuary, and profaned my holy name.

20:4. And if the people of the land neglecting, and as it were little regarding my commandment, let alone the man that hath given of his seed to Moloch, and will not kill him:

20:5. I will set my face against that man, and his kindred, and will cut off both him and all that consented with him, to commit fornication with Moloch, out of the midst of their people.

Jeremiah 32:35. And they have built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Ennom, to consecrate their sons and their daughters to Moloch: which I commanded them not, neither entered it into my heart, that they should do this abomination, and cause Juda to sin.

The act of contraception is detestable to the eyes of our Lord:

Genesis 38:9. He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother’s wife, he spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother’s name.

38:10. And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing:
 
Scriptures are the PRIMARY source for Catholic doctrine, but not the only source.

There is not one verse in the bible that states that only doctrines explicitly found in the bible are trustworthy. That is a tradition of men, a reformist opinion, a fabrication, a false doctrine, but a doctrine strictly adhered to by most Protestants. ITS NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!
 
Mediatrix of all Graces is not in the Bible. It is a poetic expression first written by St. Alphonsus Ligouri that anti-Catholics love use as proof-text to discredit Catholic teaching.

Co-mediatrix, co-redeemer, etc. means **collaborator. **Mary “assisted” in our redemption and she assist in our mediation with Christ.

This context does not give Mary equal status with Christ, or usurp Christ in anyway. She, rather, merely cooperated and collaborated with Christ.

In a sense we, too, are co-mediators every time we pray for someone. We are offering intercession/mediation for our friend when we pray for them. This does not make us God or equal with God, it only means that we are cooperating with the economy of God when he asked us to be a family and pray for each other.

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God’s will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education. “co” just simply does NOT mean “equal to”.

At this time the theory of co-redeemer is not Church dogma, and is not binding for belief by the faithful. But the concept should not wrinkle our shirts if we understand the nature of her role in the incarnation and the true meaning of “co”.
 
Assumption

It is unfair to demand scripture verses for an event that occured AFTER St. Paul wrote his Epistles. We know that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant.
The Ark of the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments written in stone, manna, and the rod of Aaron
The Ark of the New Covenant contained the Word of God in Flesh, the Bread of Life, and the High Priest. see the parallels?

What do we find in Revelation 11:19? the Ark of God.
What do we find in Rev. 12:1? A woman clothed with the sun.

There were no chapters and verses until the 13th century. They flow together. How did this Ark get there?

Enoch and Elias were taken up into heaven, are they more important than the Ark of the New Covenant?
 
  1. Indulgences
The pious use of indulgences dates back into the early days of the Church, and the principles underlying indulgences extend back into the Bible itself. Catholics who are uncomfortable with indulgences do not realize how biblical they are. The principles behind indulgences are as clear in Scripture as those behind more familiar doctrines, such as the Trinity.
catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp

Myths about Indulgences
The very word stirs up more misconceptions than perhaps any other teaching in Catholic theology. Those who attack the Church for its use of indulgences rely upon—and take advantage of—the ignorance of both Catholics and non-Catholics.
catholic.com/library/myths_about_indulgences.asp
 
epostle said:
Scriptures are the PRIMARY source for Catholic doctrine, but not the only source.

There is not one verse in the bible that states that only doctrines explicitly found in the bible are trustworthy. That is a tradition of men, a reformist opinion, a fabrication, a false doctrine, but a doctrine strictly adhered to by most Protestants. ITS NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!
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In another thread I asked you to present proof that scriptures were the primary source of Catholic doctrine and in part, you responded by posting the following from Dei Verbum:
epostle quotes from Dei Verbum:
“Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith” (Dei Verbum 10:2, also quoted in CCC 86).
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But, and this is mighty big but, Dei Verbum itself, defines the Word of God as scripture PLUS TRADITION.

Clearly in chapter II paragraph 10, Dei Verbum states:
Dei Verbum:
  1. Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 2, 42, Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort. (7)
But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9)
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Do you agree that Dei Verbum defines the Word of God as being scripture PLUS tradition?

If not, how do you explain away the above?

Anyway, it’s quite clear that your church definitely does not place scripture at the top of the list when it comes to doctrine.
 
It is not correct to say that all Catholic doctrine “derives from” Scripture.

It is more correct to say that all Catholic doctrine
is in agreement with Scripture Properly Interpreted.

It is also correct to say that all Catholic doctrine
is witnessed to in scripture, either IMPLICITLY or EXPLICITLY.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary, for example, is witnessed to IMPLICITLY in the protoevangelium, Genesis 3:15.
There is described there a WOMAN and HER SEED.
God FIRST “PUTS ENMITY” between the Woman
and the Devil (serpent). THEN God puts Enmity between the
Woman’s SEED and the Serpent.
God “PUT” Enmity between Mary and the Devil by infusing her soul with Divine Grace from the moment of her conception.
God PUT Enmity between Her Seed (Jesus) and the Devil by the very fact that Jesus was God Incarnate and His human soul also was always full of Divine Grace.

Hope this helps !!
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Jaypeeto4 said:
It is not correct to say that all Catholic doctrine “derives from” Scripture.

It is more correct to say that all Catholic doctrine
is in agreement with Scripture Properly Interpreted.

It is also correct to say that all Catholic doctrine
is witnessed to in scripture, either IMPLICITLY or EXPLICITLY.

The Immaculate Conception of Mary, for example, is witnessed to IMPLICITLY in the protoevangelium, Genesis 3:15.
There is described there a WOMAN and HER SEED.
God FIRST “PUTS ENMITY” between the Woman
and the Devil (serpent). THEN God puts Enmity between the
Woman’s SEED and the Serpent.
God “PUT” Enmity between Mary and the Devil by infusing her soul with Divine Grace from the moment of her conception.
God PUT Enmity between Her Seed (Jesus) and the Devil by the very fact that Jesus was God Incarnate and His human soul also was always full of Divine Grace.

Hope this helps !!
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
Click to expand...
Jay,

Thanks for your post.

To the best of my knowledge, based on such documents as Dei Verbum, you have stated your church’s beliefs quite well.
 
davidarlette said:
It is claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. That is, that all Catholic beliefs are derived from Scripture, and that the foundation of all beliefs can be found either ***explicitly or implictly ***in the Bible.

The Church has never claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. What the Church claims is all Catholic belief does not contradict scripture. Big difference.

The hardest thing to get explain to converts and protestants is the Church does not look to sacred Scripture on all matters. God did not set up His Church that way.
Click to expand...
 
I like the analogy Steve Ray uses.
"The span of time between the crucifixion and the determination of the canonization of Scripture was equivalent to the time between the Pilgrim’s Mayfower sailing from Plymouth, England, to our current day.
 
lsburk said:
davidarlette;2595125:
It is claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. That is, that all Catholic beliefs are derived from Scripture, and that the foundation of all beliefs can be found either ***explicitly or implictly ***
Click to expand...
in the Bible.

The Church has never claimed that all Catholic belief is based on Scripture. What the Church claims is all Catholic belief does not contradict scripture. Big difference.

I was told at RCIA that my above statement was true. That’s where I got the idea. From a very wise old priest BTW.
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davidarlette said:
I was told at RCIA that my above statement was true. That’s where I got the idea. From a very wise old priest BTW.
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It is not possible for the Bible to be the source of Catholic teaching, because we had Catholic teaching for four hundred years before we had the Bible. (Light bulbs have been around for about one quarter of that time.)

A thing cannot be caused by something that didn’t even exist yet.
 
That is a great point against Sola Scriptura, but the key articles of Faith are all supposed to be Biblical. Things like the Resurrectiion, Virgin birth that we all believe in, but also Catholic-specific teachings. Apostolic Succession (replacing Judas), Peter as “Pope” (although the word wasn’t used then) from “feed my lambs”, the infallibility of the Pope, but also Reconciliation “whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven” and so on.

I have questioned others such as the Assumption of Mary and found that Enoch was assumed, so it is "implicitly" in Scripture that Jesus’ own mother would be the same. Same with raising Lazarus from the dead. Would he let his own mother rot in the grave? Not explicitly Scriptural, but implied.
 
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