All Christians another twist to purgatory

[Kliska]

I have no problem with this, brother.

Dealing with a sister in this case.

I believe there is purification before we enter heaven, either on earth by our regret, repentant, penance and restitution for the shortcoming that we may have committed or in the next life. Purgatory is the Church teaching that this is a state of purification after life where the stain of sin have to be purified so that we will be as white as snow; it is not just being clothed with righteousness of Christ but purified internally as well so that we are worthy to be in God’s presence otherwise we would not be able to do so.

What many protestants see in scripture is that, as you say, we are not just clothed in Jesus, though that is of utmost importance, but that we are cleansed by Him. So we are indeed agreed that we need washed white as snow, but as I said, the particulars of that are where much of the argument abides.

The idea is only the perfect is worthy of heaven. Thus purgatory is great grace of God for those of us who are not perfect. I am sure there are many perfect Christians who die and go straight to heaven but then again, not all Christians are.

We are made such by Him, for we cannot do it ourselves to ourselves. There are none perfect except Him, and He, then makes us perfect, the detail is in the how and when. Indeed we all are also agreed that our works are tried and the bad burned away (praise God!) and the good rewarded. We all also agree (I believe) that our physical selves shall be raised and changed in an instant.

CS Lewis often talked of this idea. For him, he tossed around the idea of “purgation” instead of a place of Purgatory. He said he had no idea how long it would take, years, milliseconds, etc… but that he believed something of some length had to (ought to) occur. So, I understand the idea, but don’t see it quite the same from the terms and teachings in scripture, and is all tied into the new creatures we are in Christ, and that new creature vs. the old man, etc…

 

[Johnny777]

The word of God is clear on who will inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Mathew 25
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

How many of us believers exactly do it to the least of the brethrens and yet expect to go to heaven? How many times did we become indifferent to the suffering of the world and yet expect to go to heaven? We are imperfect and while being so, we sin as well. Our imperfection will be with us until the Day of Judgment. We can only expect to be purified and then enter the kingdom otherwise based on our own achievement we may as well be doomed to be considered as the goats.

The Spirit of Christ brings us into his fullness before we depart and it is not like what you have said. No one can testify on your behalf and say you need to go to purgatory. The playroom of God is this life and if in this life you are not counted in Christ’s numbers, then you are not counted. Ultimately Christ makes the decision because he arbitrates this whole process called sanctification.

If we listen to what the first century apostles say, we can learn something that will remind us that after this life we will either be approved or rejected and there is nothing more you can do or your relatives can do after you depart, in the same way the rich man in hell was told about his brother’s situation where Abraham said they have the prophets to listen to.

Today our prophets are the written testimony of the first century apostles.

Listen to what Saint John states:

He tells the church that we do not know exactly what we will become after we depart. This alludes to the immortal form taken on after the resurrection that follows immediately after the departure from this life.

This is the manifest token to internal inheritance that is already laid up by Christ for every believer/testator dies in order to come into affect.

 

[Reuben_J]

Dealing with a sister in this case.

Hey, my apology, sister. I was presumptuous and that is always the dark side of me.

What many protestants see in scripture is that, as you say, we are not just clothed in Jesus, though that is of utmost importance, but that we are cleansed by Him. So we are indeed agreed that we need washed white as snow, but as I said, the particulars of that are where much of the argument abides.

Yes, I can understand that. I am glad for the former because that if that is true and agreed upon, then it has to be addressed. We disagree on the mechanism however but probably that is less pertinent.

We are made such by Him, for we cannot do it ourselves to ourselves. There are none perfect except Him, and He, then makes us perfect, the detail is in the how and when. Indeed we all are also agreed that our works are tried and the bad burned away (praise God!) and the good rewarded. We all also agree (I believe) that our physical selves shall be raised and changed in an instant.

It does nowhere say ‘changed in an instant’. However, God transcends time and space and even if it is in an instant for God, it is still time and space for us on earth.

CS Lewis often talked of this idea. For him, he tossed around the idea of “purgation” instead of a place of Purgatory. He said he had no idea how long it would take, years, milliseconds, etc… but that he believed something of some length had to (ought to) occur. So, I understand the idea, but don’t see it quite the same from the terms and teachings in scripture, and is all tied into the new creatures we are in Christ, and that new creature vs. the old man, etc…

There are various scriptural verses that support purgatory as been mentioned by some posters here. So purgatory is very scriptural. As a Protestant you may not find the ones in 2 Maccabbee, thanks to Martin Luther who decided that this book is not inspired but only beneficial for reading.

I would not want to argue on what we disagree but I am glad for the agreement that we have on this issue, namely that only the perfect would enter heaven. This is absolutely true as it is Jesus command himself, “Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect”.

Perfection is achievable either here on earth or afterlife during ‘purgation’. We believe many of our fellow Christians died in perfection due to the holiness of their lives and obedience to God and those who lived exceptional lives like the saints. These did not go to purgatory but straight to heaven.

The new man is one who knows Christ and therefore has left the old self behind. We do not believe in ‘once saved always saved’, and therefore even as we know Christ and accept him, there can never be a guarantee that we can stay perfectly without sin especially the moment we die. For some, life is just too short to do the thing they want to do while for some, it can be too long that they may backslide or make mistakes after accepting Jesus and before they die. To live perfectly is always a struggle. Yes, we are made strong by the power of the Holy Spirit, praise God for that, but not all of us, and this I want to emphasize, not all of us are perfectly tuned to be perfect all the time. For them, the lesser of Christians, they still need the mercy of God when it comes to Judgment otherwise what chance do they have?

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Spirit of Christ brings us into his fullness before we depart and it is not like what you have said. No one can testify on your behalf and say you need to go to purgatory.

Probably much of our belief is just belief and we believe because we choose to believe. Even if your are not a Catholic, you derive your belief from somewhere.

God bless you.

 

[Johnny777]

Probably much of our belief is just belief and we believe because we choose to believe. Even if your are not a Catholic, you derive your belief from somewhere.

God bless you.

I tell you an interesting story. My belief started out as part of the collective called denomination, then when I needed questions answered I always tried to look outward for the answer to my questions. Most of my question were about the understanding of scripture in regards to the following beliefs:

1. Christ’s identity
2. resurrection of the dead
3. Christ’s heavenly kingdom
4. salvation
5. judgement

Frankly I became quite frustrated because there was so much opinion out there and on the internet, as you stated, where people derived their beliefs from.

Today I stand before you to testify that my belief started off being derived from the collective, then I asked Christ to give me understanding and through continuous pleading to give me light in matters concerning the gospel, I started to stop listening to the world.

Listen to what I just said, that is, I stopped listening outwardly and started listening inwardly.

All knowledge, wisdom and understanding started to flow like living waters, because now my inward seeking resulted in chasing the Spirit of Christ in matters concerning the gospel.

I give thanks, glory and credit to my lord and saviour Christ Jesus in opening my eyes to see his truth.

What I have said is written in both the Old and New Testament:

Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord:for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

We as Christians are charged to test every spirit to determine whether it is of Christ.

May Christ bless you

 

[Reuben_J]

I tell you an interesting story. My belief started out as part of the collective called denomination, then when I needed questions answered I always tried to look outward for the answer to my questions. Most of my question were about the understanding of scripture in regards to the following beliefs:

1. Christ’s identity
2. resurrection of the dead
3. Christ’s heavenly kingdom
4. salvation
5. judgement

Frankly I became quite frustrated because there was so much opinion out there and on the internet, as you stated, where people derived their beliefs from.

Today I stand before you to testify that my belief started off being derived from the collective, then I asked Christ to give me understanding and through continuous pleading to give me light in matters concerning the gospel, I started to stop listening to the world.

Listen to what I just said, that is, I stopped listening outwardly and started listening inwardly.

All knowledge, wisdom and understanding started to flow like living waters, because now my inward seeking resulted in chasing the Spirit of Christ in matters concerning the gospel.

I give thanks, glory and credit to my lord and saviour Christ Jesus in opening my eyes to see his truth.

What I have said is written in both the Old and New Testament:

We as Christians are charged to test every spirit to determine whether it is of Christ.

May Christ bless you

Hi Johnny 777. Well for courtesy sake, though this probably has nothing to do much with the topic of the thread, I guess I have to respond to you.

Funny though, I did exactly what you did. Though I am a cradle Catholic, my actual involvement in the faith was when I had a baptism of the Holy Spirit experience. I found that there were changes that happened to me which I could not explain in a human way. I surrendered to the Holy Spirit, emptied myself and tested every prompting and new found revelation that I experienced. I guess the Holy Spirit led me in my new found faith and enthusiasm for Jesus.

Long story short, the Spirit led me to an awesome truth, that the truth of the Lord is to be found in His Church which he set up on the foundation of the apostles beginning with Peter whom he renamed the rock. Today that Church still stands despite the challenge of 2000 years of history and my search ended there for she is the Pillar of Truth. And today after many long years I am still there and am very glad about it.

You have the Holy Spirit leading you to where you are now and I have mine too. I am glad therefore to know you.

God bless you.

Reuben.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

There is no purgatory for the believers in Christ.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Happy reading.

 

[Kliska]

Hey, my apology, sister. I was presumptuous and that is always the dark side of me.

It’s easy to get mixed up online, esp. when usernames aren’t always familiar as either male/female. If it were up to me, each Christian forum would use CS Lewis’ “Son of Adam” or “Daughter of Eve” under the username just to help out.

It does nowhere say ‘changed in an instant’. However, God transcends time and space and even if it is in an instant for God, it is still time and space for us on earth.

Just to clarify, as I read Paul, the physical side of us gets changed in the “twinkling of an eye” when our physical selves are raised incorruptible or imperishable.

There are various scriptural verses that support purgatory as been mentioned by some posters here. So purgatory is very scriptural. As a Protestant you may not find the ones in 2 Maccabbee, thanks to Martin Luther who decided that this book is not inspired but only beneficial for reading.

Yes, most don’t consider Maccabees on the same level as the rest of scripture.

I would not want to argue on what we disagree but I am glad for the agreement that we have on this issue, namely that only the perfect would enter heaven. This is absolutely true as it is Jesus command himself, “Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect”.

Perfection is achievable either here on earth or afterlife during ‘purgation’. We believe many of our fellow Christians died in perfection due to the holiness of their lives and obedience to God and those who lived exceptional lives like the saints. These did not go to purgatory but straight to heaven.

And that is what most protestants believe is available to all Christians through Jesus’ work and blood. In effect we believe He does the cleansing removing all spot and blemish and forgetting our sin when the process is done. For us, that is being born again in a sense.

The new man is one who knows Christ and therefore has left the old self behind. We do not believe in ‘once saved always saved’, and therefore even as we know Christ and accept him, there can never be a guarantee that we can stay perfectly without sin especially the moment we die. For some, life is just too short to do the thing they want to do while for some, it can be too long that they may backslide or make mistakes after accepting Jesus and before they die. To live perfectly is always a struggle. Yes, we are made strong by the power of the Holy Spirit, praise God for that, but not all of us, and this I want to emphasize, not all of us are perfectly tuned to be perfect all the time. For them, the lesser of Christians, they still need the mercy of God when it comes to Judgment otherwise what chance do they have?

We tend to believe the new man is very literally a new creation, and thanks to the new covenant this new creation isn’t held under the bondage of the law. Where there is no law, no sin is imputed. That’s not to say we don’t commit sinful acts, we do, as Paul says it is the flesh that is weak. Our earthly flesh is still flawed, and will remain so until the resurrection. However, that new creation or new man has no condemnation laid to it’s charge, for it has no law over it. How can this be? It is all through Jesus sacrifice and His work and us being made part of that by grace through faith.

I think were we agree with the most is our sanctification is a process for sure, though protestants tend to favor the idea of salvation being an event. All Christians, the strong in faith and the weak in faith, are still covered and washed by the same blood, so that their selves are saved by Him, renewed by Him, and cleansed by Him. We see His sacrifice as necessary and sufficient and totally efficacious to cleanse us of all sin, past, present, and future. Our works are a separate issue and shall be tried as such. So, while we protestants tend to believe all are on the same level in salvation, all are not on the same level for sanctification, and/or works/rewards.

God bless.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Reuben_J]

And that is what most protestants believe is available to all Christians through Jesus’ work and blood. In effect we believe He does the cleansing removing all spot and blemish and forgetting our sin when the process is done. For us, that is being born again in a sense.

We tend to believe the new man is very literally a new creation, and thanks to the new covenant this new creation isn’t held under the bondage of the law. Where there is no law, no sin is imputed. That’s not to say we don’t commit sinful acts, we do, as Paul says it is the flesh that is weak. Our earthly flesh is still flawed, and will remain so until the resurrection. However, that new creation or new man has no condemnation laid to it’s charge, for it has no law over it. How can this be? It is all through Jesus sacrifice and His work and us being made part of that by grace through faith.

I think were we agree with the most is our sanctification is a process for sure, though protestants tend to favor the idea of salvation being an event. All Christians, the strong in faith and the weak in faith, are still covered and washed by the same blood, so that their selves are saved by Him, renewed by Him, and cleansed by Him. We see His sacrifice as necessary and sufficient and totally efficacious to cleanse us of all sin, past, present, and future. Our works are a separate issue and shall be tried as such. So, while we protestants tend to believe all are on the same level in salvation, all are not on the same level for sanctification, and/or works/rewards.

Probably there in here we differ and perhaps each would take the teaching of our churches respectively. I am not up to it in commenting more as it would mean to dispute your belief which I do not understand much. There are many Catholics here, probably ex-Protestants who are well versed in your belief and therefore can argue on it in greater depth.

Summarily however, we do not believe that the grace of Jesus through his work and blood as carte blanche to being saved and guaranteed heaven. That grace enables our sins to be forgiven when we repent (in Baptism or asking for forgiveness from God). However, we would suffer the consequence of sin whenever we commit one, if it is not repented sincerely.

New creation is a new man by virtue of our Baptism – death to sin and live to righteousness but that as long as we have that righteousness. Sin still convicts us nevertheless.

We believe when we commit sin, the price has to be paid in full either here on earth or thereafter. This does not mean that death would change our destiny – it is still heaven or hell. Only that some may not go to heaven directly, I know many Protestants would ridicule this, but that exactly what we believe – the needed purification is purgatory.

Personally, like I said, purgatory is a great mercy of God where if sin is really black and white, we would have no chance to enter heaven except for the few saintly Christians.

Be blessed.

 

[JonNC]

There are various scriptural verses that support purgatory as been mentioned by some posters here. So purgatory is very scriptural. As a Protestant you may not find the ones in 2 Maccabbee, thanks to Martin Luther who decided that this book is not inspired but only beneficial for reading.

Hey Reuben,
Luther was, of course, not the only one to hold that opinion regarding the Deuterocanonical boos. But that said, it is curious that in recent dialogue, our communions have found our understanding of purgation at the time of death to be not so very different at all.

From the document, The Hope of Eternal Life

1. Catholics and Lutherans agree:

1. During this life, the justified “are not exempt from a lifelong struggle against the contradiction to God within the selfish desires of the old Adam (see Gal. 5:16; Rom. 7:7-10)” (JDDJ, 28; cf. Trent DS 1515 and 1690 and LC, Baptism, paras. 65-67236).

1. This struggle is rightly described by a variety of categories: e.g., penitence, healing, daily dying and rising with Christ.

1. Borne in Christ, the painful aspects of this struggle are a participation in Christ’s suffering and death. Catholic teachings call these pains temporal punishments; the Lutheran Confessions grant they can, "in a formal sense,"237 be called punishments.

1. This ongoing struggle does not indicate an insufficiency in Christ’s saving work, but is an aspect of our being conformed to Christ and his saving work.238

1. The effects of sin in the justified are fully removed only as they die, undergo judgment, and encounter the purifying love of Christ. The justified are transformed from their condition at death to the condition with which they will be blessed in eternal glory. All, even martyrs and saints of the highest order, will find the encounter with the Risen Christ transformative in ways beyond human comprehension.

1. Christ transforms those who enter into eternal life. This change is a work of God’s grace. It can be rightly understood as our final and perfect conformation to Christ (Phil 3:21). The fire of Christ’s love burns away all that is incompatible with living in the direct presence of God. It is the complete death of the old person, leaving only the new person in Christ.

1. Scripture tells us little about the process of the transformation from this life to entrance into eternal life. Categories of space and time can be applied only analogously.

and

Convergences

1. Today, Lutheran and Catholic teaching integrates purgation with death, judgment, and the encounter with Christ. **Recent Catholic and Lutheran understandings of purgation sound remarkably similar. **While the word “purgatory” remains an ecumenically charged term, and for many Catholics and Lutherans signals a sharp division, our work in this round has shown that our churches’ understandings of how the justified enter eternal glory are closer than expected.

212.** In light of the analysis given above, this dialogue believes that the topic of purgation, in and of itself, need not divide our communions.240**

The discussion of purgation and Purgatory start at paragraph 157

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

 

[Kliska]

Probably there in here we differ and perhaps each would take the teaching of our churches respectively. I am not up to it in commenting more as it would mean to dispute your belief which I do not understand much. There are many Catholics here, probably ex-Protestants who are well versed in your belief and therefore can argue on it in greater depth.

Summarily however, we do not believe that the grace of Jesus through his work and blood as carte blanche to being saved and guaranteed heaven. That grace enables our sins to be forgiven when we repent (in Baptism or asking for forgiveness from God). However, we would suffer the consequence of sin whenever we commit one, if it is not repented sincerely.

New creation is a new man by virtue of our Baptism – death to sin and live to righteousness but that as long as we have that righteousness. Sin still convicts us nevertheless.

We believe when we commit sin, the price has to be paid in full either here on earth or thereafter. This does not mean that death would change our destiny – it is still heaven or hell. Only that some may not go to heaven directly, I know many Protestants would ridicule this, but that exactly what we believe – the needed purification is purgatory.

Personally, like I said, purgatory is a great mercy of God where if sin is really black and white, we would have no chance to enter heaven except for the few saintly Christians.

Be blessed.

I agree, to go forward would be to descend into argumentation from totally differing perspectives. I don’t think Protestants (at least I wouldn’t) would want to ridicule you over this, but rather we tend to take it as somewhat of a slight against the efficacious power of Jesus’ blood and His life, and sacrifice. We believe all penalty, the price of all sin, was paid by Him in our stead.

This is why some of us Protestants find continuing in sin so repugnant, as we live with our belief that all penalty all price is laid on Jesus on that cross at Calvary. It is enough to bring one to their knees in awe and humbleness, and a heart to present ourselves a living sacrifice to truly become, as Paul says, a slave to Christ. In our mind it is because of that sacrifice that Purgatory is not necessary for any and all who are saved by grace.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hey Reuben,
Luther was, of course, not the only one to hold that opinion regarding the Deuterocanonical boos. But that said, it is curious that in recent dialogue, our communions have found our understanding of purgation at the time of death to be not so very different at all.

From the document, The Hope of Eternal Life

and

The discussion of purgation and Purgatory start at paragraph 157

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/hope-eternal-life.cfm

Jon

Hi Jon. I had a premonition that some Lutherans would read the part and take the bait. I can understand that you have to defend Luther with regard to the Deutero but I was just making a point to Kliska. Anyway thanks for the comment.

I am not good in reading properly but if your point is that purification is required, then we do indeed share that similarity. Us, you and the Orthodox probably believe the same thing. It is being defined where we differ. Take out the purgatory, we would be much closer than we would like to think.

And here a Catholic is suspecting you guys of rejecting purgatory simply because it has Catholic’s trademark. I am just kidding. Thanks again for the references.

Be blessed.

Reuben

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree, to go forward would be to descend into argumentation from totally differing perspectives. **I don’t think Protestants (at least I wouldn’t) would want to ridicule you over this, but rather we tend to take it as somewhat of a slight against the efficacious power of Jesus’ blood and His life, and sacrifice. ** We believe all penalty, the price of all sin, was paid by Him in our stead.

This is why some of us Protestants find continuing in sin so repugnant, as we live with our belief that all penalty all price is laid on Jesus on that cross at Calvary. It is enough to bring one to their knees in awe and humbleness, and a heart to present ourselves a living sacrifice to truly become, as Paul says, a slave to Christ. In our mind it is because of that sacrifice that Purgatory is not necessary for any and all who are saved by grace.

Thanks for your charity. I have seen uncharitable comments from both divides but hey, there are many great Protestants, and I am all the more humbled by them.

 

[JonNC]

=Reuben J;11428620]Hi Jon. I had a premonition that some Lutherans would read the part and take the bait.

You know me, Reuben; Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
Actually, your comment gave me the entrance to add the link to the conversation.

I can understand that you have to defend Luther with regard to the Deutero but I was just making a point to Kliska. Anyway thanks for the comment.

Yes. Understood.

I am not good in reading properly but if your point is that purification is required, then we do indeed share that similarity. Us, you and the Orthodox probably believe the same thing. It is being defined where we differ. Take out the purgatory, we would be much closer than we would like to think.

Exactly. Basically two things: 1) the intermediate state/place is something we shy from, 2) the bigger issue for the Reformers was the practices that grew up around Purgatory - indulgences, requiem masses, etc.

And here a Catholic is suspecting you guys of rejecting purgatory simply because it has Catholic’s trademark. I am just kidding. Thanks again for the references.

My pleasure.

Be blessed.

And you also.
Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

There is no purgatory for the believers in Christ. All who depart from this life, face the first judgement, that is, the judgement of the sheep and goats before Christ’s Royal heavenly court room.
This is when the thief (death) comes in a day and hour that no man knows to destroy (kill) your earthly house (body).

Christ being risen is tied to the commencement of the resurrection of the dead.

As Saint Paul stated why say some amongst you that there is no resurrection. If the dead rise not then Christ is not risen.

So the commencement of the resurrection of the dead is tied to Christ’s resurrection. All the Old Testament men of God were waiting asleep in Abraham’s bosom (paradise) until the messiah did show up and did rise to open their graves and take them into the new heavenly city new Jerusalem.

Answer this one question.

Can God exist in a state of sinfulness?

 

[Johnny777]

Everything God does through the risen Lord is perfect, majestic and righteous.

That is why his Holy Spirit will accomplish the question of salvation before a true Christian departs from this life.

This life is the testing ground, the valley of decision so to speak.

If the rich man in hell wanted to save his brothers, Abraham told him that they have the law and the prophets. So the rich man couldn’t go back to warn his brothers, neither can his brothers fix the fate of the rich man in hell.

Once a person crosses the veil called death, then they face the first judgement, the judgement seat of Christ, that is called the Lord’s appearing, when the thief (death) comes on a day and hour in the middle of the night (time is up) that no man knows, to destroy the earthly house (body).

Christ tells everyone to be watchful, meaning vigilant in faith, because the time of his appearing to that particular individual will come when he knows not. Almost 2000 years have passed and this has applied to all the departed, the good and the wicked.

The last 2000 years has been the first judgement and the separation of the sheep and goats. Which is why Christ tells his followers to hold onto your garments, least you go off naked into outer darkness.

So there are two places that are described after Christ’s resurrection. The automatic migration in the twinkling of an eye to the Heavenly Kingdom or the sending away into outer darkness. That is why in John’s Revelation those sheep who have part in the resurrection of the dead, that was initiated by Christ when he arose, shall not be affected by the second death at the end of time, which is the death of the soul.

We can understand scripture that the departed in Christ who hold vigilant to the faith in Christ will not taste the second death, as Jesus had foretold those standing with him before his resurrection.

Therefore there is no condemnation and judgement upon those who are invited to the wedding of the lamb by being resurrected as Angels to be reunited with Christ in heavenly New Jerusalem. The others who had died and were sent off into outer darkness await their final fate in the final judgement of the wicked, where they will be executed in the lake of fire, which is the annihilation of the soul as if the person never existed. The wicked do face the end of time judgement after all Adam Ones have died, these are given to the fire as a group. This becomes the broad way to destruction, while the narrow way becomes the one by one ushering in, into the Kingdom of each individual who has been redeemed before the sounding of the seventh trumpet by Christ when Adam One life has ended. Revelation of John states that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, meaning there is no more Adam Ones left to be offered onto death.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Catholics agree with all this.

You did not answer my question.

 

[Johnny777]

Make your point and let me here if the voice of Christ is in you and I will test your testimony.

Your turn.