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FrDavid96
Guest
Not true!!!
If I wanted to do that, I would post this:
http://www.catholicliturgicals.com/admin/uploads/CL_RVS_D08B_XMAS_0GO_02.jpg
which I won’t, of course.
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If I wanted to do that, I would post this:
http://www.catholicliturgicals.com/admin/uploads/CL_RVS_D08B_XMAS_0GO_02.jpg
which I won’t, of course.
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bardegaulois
Guest
I could intensify this by scouring the New Liturgical Movement archives… Oh, God, stay my hand…
In any case, Father, thanks for the tip. I have a feeling that the priests who say Mass for us will be getting rather lovely gifts this Christmas.
In any case, Father, thanks for the tip. I have a feeling that the priests who say Mass for us will be getting rather lovely gifts this Christmas.
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FrDavid96
Guest
Glad to be of help.
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Chatter163
Guest
There are tons of affordable black vestments available on eBay.
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Phemie
Guest
You’re lucky. We only have green, red, violet and white. No priest in my 17 years here has wanted to wear rose so we were never able to convince any to spend money on rose vestments. Our present Pastor just bought 4 new chasubles, rose & black were not even considered.
The Canadian GIRM says:
346 a)(…)The colour white may also be worn in funerals and in Offices and Masses for the Dead.
d) The colour violet or purple is used in Advent and Lent. It may also be worn in Offices and Masses for the Dead.
e) The colour black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead.
I don’t know where you’d have to go to find a parish where wearing black vestments for a funeral ‘is the practice’. I’ve seen nothing but white vestments at funerals in recent memory.
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HaroldA
Guest
We have beautiful black vestments which my pastor normally wears on All Souls Day.
That said, this year he wore purple. I recall in 2011 when the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 was on a Sunday all Masses were requiems and he wore purple. I assume, but do not know, that he prefers not to wear black on Sundays.
That said, this year he wore purple. I recall in 2011 when the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 was on a Sunday all Masses were requiems and he wore purple. I assume, but do not know, that he prefers not to wear black on Sundays.
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Brendan
Guest
I had an unusual case this Sunday, the priest wore green vestments
I was at an Irish cultural event on Sunday. Mass was offered that morning by an order priest visiting from Ireland.
Needless to say, I found his choice of vestments a bit unusual, so I asked him about it during the luncheon after Mass.
The vestments belonged to his brother, who was also a priest. The brother was a missionary priest and died in Kenya back in the 80’s
So the priest was wearing it, with permission from his prior, in memory of the soul of his brother.
I was at an Irish cultural event on Sunday. Mass was offered that morning by an order priest visiting from Ireland.
Needless to say, I found his choice of vestments a bit unusual, so I asked him about it during the luncheon after Mass.
The vestments belonged to his brother, who was also a priest. The brother was a missionary priest and died in Kenya back in the 80’s
So the priest was wearing it, with permission from his prior, in memory of the soul of his brother.
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phil19034
Guest
How many Black Vestments & Stoles should be purchased to make sure the parish uses them? At my parish (and many in the area) the Deacon never wears a Dalmatics, only Alb & Stole. We usually have at least one Deacon at Mass. Must the Deacon wear the a black Dalmatic if the priest is wearing black?
(NOTE: I know that Deacons really should be wearing the Dalmatic, but for some reason they are rare in my Archdiocese)
Thoughts?
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FrDavid96
Guest
Exactly one.
(continued later)
The deacon is not supposed to wear only an alb and stole. Reality is that many of them do. The rule is not as strict for deacons as it is for priests, who must wear the chasuble.
I don’t know of any law or rubric or interpretation that specifically addresses that issue.
I do know that concelebrants can wear white (let’s say the main celebrant is in red) if there are many of them and not enough of the proper color to go around; so there is room in the Church’s practice for clerics in different colors.
Personally, I think that if the priest wears black and there is no black dalmatic, the deacon can wear violet. That’s better than no dalmatic. Also, even if the priest does wear black, the tabernacle is covered in violet (the Blessed Sacrament is never clothed in black). And, the color for Benediction on All Souls Day is violet. So, I think there’s some room to accommodate a deacon in violet if there’s no black dalmatic available.
The good news is that overall more deacons are wearing dalmatics now than they were before. I see a certain movement toward more proper liturgy and away from the minimalist (almost iconoclast) attitude we had in the dark days of the 70’s and 80’s.
From where I sit, I cannot offer any thoughts on why your deacons don’t wear them much. However, it sometimes comes down to the very simple fact that the dalmatics just aren’t in the sacristy closet. The ones sold in the catalogues that flood the parish mailboxes every fall are typically either very expensive or not worth having.
Back to the issue of black vestments:
It’s not a matter of “how many black vestments are enough.” A priest only needs one per Mass, after all. It’s rather a matter of:
- Is a black chasuble available?
- Is the priest willing to wear it?
I often see the comment posted on CAF “if the priest doesn’t have a black vestment, buy one for him” (replace black vestment with anything else, like “proper chalice” or “humeral veil” or “missal not bound by duct-tape” or whatever else). That’s not always a good suggestion.
If the priest indicates that he wants (or willing) to have something, then by all means, buy one for him or for the parish. However, if he won’t wear or use it anyway, there’s no point in buying one.
The first thing to do is talk to the priest and get a feel for what he’s willing to use. Many priests truly do not know that if they shop around, many good quality vestments can be purchased on the internet today. They don’t cost as much as people think (again, those catalogues). Maybe if he knew that he could get a good black vestment for $70, he’d jump at the chance. Maybe he won’t wear one even if someone spends $2,000 and makes a gift of it. It all depends on the priest.
If you’re comfortable enough with the priest, I’d suggest showing him a black vestment either on a screen (maybe a smartphone or tablet) or print the picture. Just ask him “Father, if we donate this to the parish (or give this to you), is this something you would wear?” Don’t be even the least bit confrontational about it.
Try to remember what he said on Sunday when he preached on All Souls Day (assuming he did, rather than the deacon or another priest). If he pointed to his white vestments and confused All Souls with All Saints, then he probably won’t wear black anyway. If he preached about Purgatory, and especially if he said “we shouldn’t make funerals into canonizations” then he might be willing to entertain the idea.
Also, remember that it’s not always as simple as acquiring one black vestment.
Some parishes are very concerned about everything in the church matching. The pastor might have invested a lot of parish funds into having vestments, altar frontals, ambo frontals, and everything else to all match each other. Just something to keep in mind.
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Usige
Guest
Father David, thank you for the vestment insights and sharing where inexpensive vestments could be obtained. Generally I see chasubles and dalmatics listed in the $400-800+ range. For the cost of one in a regular catalog you could buy 5 or 6 sets at the prices via your link. Interesting that they include maniple, veil and burse since it seems few use them outside of the EF.
I almost had to laugh when you mentioned priests talking about purgatory and not making funerals mini canonizations. Our pastor forwarned people that they would be talking about purgatory and praying for the departed during November. The parochial vicar even talked about Second Maccabees and the councils of Florence and Trent yesterday. Given that perhaps I will approach them and see if the would accept a gift of black vestments if I provided them. After seeing the black funeral pall I might even offer that as well.
I truly appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
I almost had to laugh when you mentioned priests talking about purgatory and not making funerals mini canonizations. Our pastor forwarned people that they would be talking about purgatory and praying for the departed during November. The parochial vicar even talked about Second Maccabees and the councils of Florence and Trent yesterday. Given that perhaps I will approach them and see if the would accept a gift of black vestments if I provided them. After seeing the black funeral pall I might even offer that as well.
I truly appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
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DeaconsSon87
Guest
I always thought the rule was that black vestments are never to be worn on Sunday, as we celebrate the Lord’s Resurrection that day.
Apparently you all know something I don’t…
Apparently you all know something I don’t…
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FrDavid96
Guest
Actually no.
Funerals are permitted on Sundays in Ordinary Time (and some other non-privileged seasons), and also Masses for the Dead on such occasions as the 1-year anniversary (GIRM 380-81). It’s not customary in the U.S. for funerals on Sundays, so most of us have probably never experienced one. That holds not only for Catholic liturgical practice, but there are very few non-Catholic Sunday funerals. We’re simply not used to seeing it done.
In practical terms, since Americans generally don’t have Sunday funerals anyway, the only time this would be relevant is the few years that All Souls Day happens to fall on a Sunday.
I’ve done my share of wake services on Sunday afternoon/evening. I’ve certainly worm black stoles at those, and frankly the idea of not wearing a black stole because the wake happens on a Sunday never even occurred to me.
There’s no rule (rubric, liturgical norm, or whatever other word might apply) stating that black is not worn on Sundays. There’s none that I’m aware of (and that’s an important qualification because I don’t claim to have every rubric and norm committed to memory).
If such a rule existed, then that would necessitate a mention in the section of the GIRM which deals with liturgical colors (n. 346) qualifying that black is “not used on Sundays.”
Is the rule about “no black on Sundays” something you’ve actually seen in any of the official liturgical norms?
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FrDavid96
Guest
Happy to help. Especially if the result is more priests wearing black for Masses for the Dead.
Ask me if I know where to find a cheap “children of the world” chasuble, and I’ll pretend I never read the question.
It sounds like your priests might be at least open to considering black vestments. I wish you good luck.
Here’s another good source:
www.chasubles.eu
It’s a vestment company in Poland. They do great work, and their prices are very reasonable. Be sure to click on the country/currency box at the top of the screen first because of the European VAT tax. Even if you can translate euros into dollars in your head, the actual price changes when the shipping destination is the U.S.
One thing I would suggest though is purchasing as many as possible at one time. I made the mistake of spreading the purchases over time (one set a month). The shipping cost is rather expensive for the first set. I paid enough in shipping that I could have had a few more vestments instead for the same total cost. Live and learn.
Here’s two of their black vestments. Either of these is $127 (+ shipping at today’s exchange rate)
They have some better black ones (in my opinion) but they don’t always show every vestment in every color, even if it’s available.
http://www.chasubles.eu/data/gfx/pictures/medium/2/5/3252_6.jpg
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Weejee
Guest
Thanks for the purgatory-talk idea. I’m planning my funeral now, and I will see if I can get the priest to ask for prayers for my soul (As well as for the other Holy Souls) cept my soul isn’t holy YET. But if everyone prays for me, maybe I can get out of purgatory earlier! Yippee!
I"ll also ask for prayers for the others, so some of them can get out too.
I’m glad people on this site are so conscious about helping the Holy Souls. When I lived inAlbany NY, people used to look at me like I was a MADWOMAN, talking about souls in purgatory. Even people who were active in their churches thought purgatory was a myth, as if it were limbo. (Didn’t Pope Benedict XVI finally debunk Limbo?)
One friend told me you only went to purgatory if you CHOSE to. I’d still choose to. I want to go before God as he might want me to go: wedding garment and all.
I"ll also ask for prayers for the others, so some of them can get out too.
I’m glad people on this site are so conscious about helping the Holy Souls. When I lived inAlbany NY, people used to look at me like I was a MADWOMAN, talking about souls in purgatory. Even people who were active in their churches thought purgatory was a myth, as if it were limbo. (Didn’t Pope Benedict XVI finally debunk Limbo?)
One friend told me you only went to purgatory if you CHOSE to. I’d still choose to. I want to go before God as he might want me to go: wedding garment and all.
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GoGoDiego
Guest
Last sunday, the priest wore white. In the philippines, for Masses for the Dead, violet is used. Black was never quite used here because of the warm climate. In my opinion, it is quite distasteful for a priest to wear white for these Masses, especially if the dead soul/s haven’t attained the beatific vision.
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Weejee
Guest
Yep. You’re right. When I asked the priest to wear purple for my husband’s mass, he STILL wore white. sigh All we can do is ask…
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maryj
Guest
Our priests wore black, the vestments are very old, and stunningly beautiful!!
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VAC
Guest
I haven’t ever seen a priest wear black vestments to mass and I’m not young.
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