Altar Visibility in Large Gothic Cathedrals with Choirs

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Hello.

So, I was looking at pictures of beautiful Gothic Cathedrals like Lincoln’s. However, I realized that this cathedral has a massive closed choir between the nave and the altar. In these situations, the laity simply couldn’t see the Mass. Is it right?

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(Now it has a modern altar in the center before the choir, but I am obviously talking about the traditional one, behind the choir.)

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(british-towns.net)

Look how the presbytery is behind the choir and it is not even visible in the aerial image. And this is a very common arrangement in large Gothic Cathedrals.
 
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Perhaps you can include a photo of what you are taking about.
 
In these times when these were built and the choir was in place, what was there for the laity to see? It wasn’t really necessary for the people to have a line of sight.
 
Thank you. So, the laity really couldn’t see the altar, right?
 
They couldn’t see very much. As the Wiki article describes, after the 6th century the practice was to hide or veil the altar from the laity, or have the church building be so small the laity had to all gather around outside while the priest and others involved in saying the Mass went inside and said it.

Here’s a video of a re-created Latin Mass from the 1400s, you can see the laity all gathering around outside the screen.

 
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Yes, I read it. Thank you very much! It was indeed a very different experience. The laity would be just grasping the sacrifice mysteriously in the mist of incense and Gregorian chant.
 
GIven that the Mass was in Latin and the laity mostly couldn’t understand Latin and in many cases couldn’t even read, their understanding of Mass was limited to what the priest taught them about it.
 
Here’s a photo from the rear of the nave. Since the altar is raised, it might be possible to see, but the priest and ministers would likely block your view. The laity, as established above, wouldn’t really be watching anyway - their focus would be the other sights (particularly the stained glass and statuary) and sounds.

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imo said:
However, I realized that this cathedral has a massive closed choir between the nave and the altar. In these situations, the laity simply couldn’t see the Mass. Is it right?
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This was the norm in all Catholic churches from approximately the fifth century to the late 1500s. The chancel (choir and sanctuary) were hidden from the nave by a “chancel screen” or “rood screen”, which could be quite massive, and when not, was fitted with curtains that were drawn during parts of the mass. The sanctuary, in turn, could also be separated off from the choir by an additional sanctuary screen, as well. In the early phase of this development, the altar itself was hidden by curtains hung from a canopy called the ciborium (what we call a ciborium today is so called because it is draped with a veil and resembles the old “altar under a tent” ciboria.

The only part of the Mass that the faithful were intended to see, and then often with great difficulty and jostling, was the elevation. The readings were read by the deacon or priest through an opening in the chancel screen that were opened to let him stick his head out like a cuckoo clock, or directly from a doorway in the rood screen.

Otherwise, the faithful in the nave could see very little, and hear very little as well. Chancel and sanctuary screens were abandoned shortly after Trent in the late 1500s, to be replaced by low altar rails that permitted full visibility of the sanctuary.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Here’s a video of a re-created Latin Mass from the 1400s, you can see the laity all gathering around outside the screen.
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The one inaccuracy in the video is that the chancel screen is not fitted with curtains as it originally would have been. I presume the film crew was not allowed to tamper with the historical architecture to that degree. It does show the priest doing the readings like a cuckoo clock, though.

Another inaccuracy is that it shows the faithful in the nave seated and focused like an audience in a theater for the duration of the Mass, something that was unknown until after chancel screens were abolished. Seating was limited, and the parishioners would be absorbed in their own private devotions until they heard the bell for the elevation, when they would attempt to see the host and chalice.
 
Don’t forget that all the side altars were in constant use sometimes simultaneously. On any day you could have had your pick of more than one Mass taking place in the same Cathedral, and would have had no difficulty being right up close to the action if you wanted.

However, it is a very vatican-2 attitude that you need to see and understand the Mass to benefit from it.
 
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GordonP said:
Another inaccuracy is that it shows the faithful in the nave seated and focused like an audience in a theater for the duration of the Mass, something that was unknown until after chancel screens were abolished.
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I was under the impression they were standing, which would have been the correct posture (except for the parts where they kneel). Not seeing the seats.
 
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Maximian said:
would have had no difficulty being right up close to the action if you wanted.
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Side chapels likewise were fitted with screens and/or curtains.
Maximian said:
However, it is a very vatican-2 attitude that you need to see and understand the Mass to benefit from it.
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It was a very Tridentine attitude to increase visibility and allow lay participation. Which would steadily increase until the twentieth century.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I was under the impression they were standing, which would have been the correct posture (except for the parts where they kneel). Not seeing the seats.
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It’s been a while since I saw that video, but I got the impression that they were seated in benches theater style. I might be wrong. It’s time to watch it again. It’s a good video and they really did their research.
 
Maximian said:
I don’t know Lincoln Cathedral well enough but in cathedrals generally that was by no means the case
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It certainly was. The Mass was never for public display until after Trent, as was strictly a clerics-only, behind-closed-doors event wherever and whenever it was said.

The chapels were there so that all priests in the community could say daily Mass. The presence of the laity was of no importance, and they were excluded there just as they were from the main altar. That would change drastically right after Trent.
 
I can see where around 29 minutes in, it does look like they are sitting in benches, but the video is so dark it’s hard to see whether they’re actually sitting in benches or whether those are just partitions or something else, and also whether they are actually sitting or just standing in front of the bench/ partition. I wondered if the historic church they used had built-in benches dating to a later era, so I looked it up. It was filmed in Endre Church near Visby in Gotland, which currently belongs to the Church of Sweden. The rood screen was apparently constructed for the filming. Here’s a picture of the church interior. It does have benches that likely couldn’t have been removed for the filming, although they would only be in the way of the actors off to each side, and there’s a fairly wide space in the middle.

 
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