Alternate Rendering for John 15:13?

[tkdnick]

I was talking with a friend of mine the other night and he was saying that there is an ancient, alternate translation of John 15:13 that states No man has greater love than to put aside his life for his friends. Anyone heard of this? Anyone know anything about this? Anyone have personal opinions about the possibility of this?

Thanks!

 

[Pug]

Before I have an opinion, I wonder which word or words seem different to you specifically? Is it the word “man” or is it the rendering “put aside” rather than “lay down”? Here is a quote from the D-R

DRA John 15:13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

[tkdnick]

Pug:

Before I have an opinion, I wonder which word or words seem different to you specifically? Is it the word “man” or is it the rendering “put aside” rather than “lay down”? Here is a quote from the D-R

DRA John 15:13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

My specific question is the rendering of “lay down”. Every translation I have ever read says “lay down”. This person said that an ancient translation can be attributed as being “put aside”.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

I don’t see how it changes the context. Christ is speaking about great love most visible in self-sacrifice. Just as “laying down one’s life” can be seen as encompassing minor self-denial all the way to death, so can “setting aside one’s life”. When we reflect on the Crucifixion, we can readily see precisely what Christ meant.

 

[Pug]

qh/| verb subj aor act 3rd per sing

[Fri] ti,qhmi impf. evti,qounÈ fut. qh,sw( mid. qh,somaiÈ 1aor. e;qhkaÈ 2aor. subj. qw/( 2pl. imper. qe,te( inf. qei/nai( ptc. qei,j( mid. evqe,mhnÈ pf. te,qeika( pass. te,qeimaiÈ 1aor. pass. evte,qhn a bland verb, w. a basic mng. of put, place, lay, and the sense oft. derived fr. its obj. and context. I. act. and pass.; (1) gener., in a local sense; lay (a foundation LU 14.29), lay out to be seen by someone passing by (MK 6.56), lay away, bury (MK 6.29); lay on (the hands MK 8.25); put, place (a light MK 4.21); (2) fig. of enduement w. the Spirit put (MT 12.18); put down (enemies MT 22.44); economically, invest, deposit (money LU 19.21); set aside, store up (money 1C 16.2); (3) idiomatically tiqe,nai ta. go,nata lit. place the knees, i.e. bend the knees, kneel down (MK 15.19); tiqe,nai evn kardi,a| lit. place in the heart or mind, i.e. make up one’s mind, decide, purpose (LU 21.14); tiqe,nai evn tw/| pneu,mati lit. place in the spirit, i.e. make up one’s mind, resolve (AC 19.21); tiqe,nai th.n yuch,n lit. lay down one’s life, i.e. die voluntarily (JN 10.11), et al.; (4) w. double acc. establish, appoint, make someone someth., destine someone to or for something (AC 13.47; RO 4.17). II. mid. w. same mngs. but w. more self-involvement; (1) esp. of God’s designed self-activity arrange, establish, fix, entrust (AC 1.7; 2C 5.19; 1T 1.12); (2) keep in mind, think of, resolve (LU 1.66; AC 5.4).

GNM Usage summary for FORM qh/|:

1. ti,qhmi vsaa–3s (verb subj aor act 3rd per sing ) 2

I have cut some stuff from a Greek dictionary (Friberg). All the Greek words turned to gibberish, however. I have highlighted the basic meaning. I found it interesting that it could be used of setting aside money as for an investment. In case if you can’t make out that red part, I think it says a bland verb with a basic meaning of put, place, lay, and the sense often derived from its object and context.

Given that it is a generalish sort of word, figured out from context, it is not too surprising to me that an earlier translation than the KJV might have rendered it differently. Caveat: I know nothing of Greek really, and only some Hebrew. So you are surely only getting an opinion here.

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

Wow. I was trying yesterday to post a thread for the same question, but for some reason it didn’t work. Then today, I find that the question I asked was posted!

I think it is interesting that the word used does not mean a physical death. When I was younger, I automatically interpreted the verse to mean death, but as I got older, I came to see it as a daily laying down or giving up of one’s life for the sake of others. I first began to see the verse this way when I was talking about 9/11 with someone. I can’t remember how we got into it, but I said that our culture rightly admires those who gave their lives to save others that day, but our society also sends a message that the goal of life is to live for ourselves. I think that it is impossible, or at least very difficult, to die for someone else if you do not give up your life each day. St. Paul actually says “I die every day!” (1 Cor 15:31). In order for us to be able to make the ultimate sacrifice of our lives described in John 15:13, we must be able to make the daily sacrifice of our lives described in John 15:13.

I don’t know any Greek besides a few words, so I can’t really help with that, but I just wanted to share how the wording influenced the way I viewed the passage.

 

[tkdnick]

Grace and Glory:

Wow. I was trying yesterday to post a thread for the same question, but for some reason it didn’t work. Then today, I find that the question I asked was posted!

I think it is interesting that the word used does not mean a physical death. When I was younger, I automatically interpreted the verse to mean death, but as I got older, I came to see it as a daily laying down or giving up of one’s life for the sake of others. I first began to see the verse this way when I was talking about 9/11 with someone. I can’t remember how we got into it, but I said that our culture rightly admires those who gave their lives to save others that day, but our society also sends a message that the goal of life is to live for ourselves. I think that it is impossible, or at least very difficult, to die for someone else if you do not give up your life each day. St. Paul actually says “I die every day!” (1 Cor 15:31). In order for us to be able to make the ultimate sacrifice of our lives described in John 15:13, we must be able to make the daily sacrifice of our lives described in John 15:13.

I don’t know any Greek besides a few words, so I can’t really help with that, but I just wanted to share how the wording influenced the way I viewed the passage.

Well isn’t that cool?!?!? That is EXACTLY my experience. I have thought for years that it meant “to die” and only recently have I looked at the possibility of it not being a literal death. My experience that led me to that idea wasn’t something dramatic like 9/11, but looking at how I act around and treat the children that I teach. And I got to thinking “I lay down my life for those kids every time I step out on the floor to teach them.”

So it sounds like we can interpret both ways…as a literal dying for someone else and as a “putting aside” you life for the benefit of others. Very cool no???

 

[Verbum]

HI TDK___,

The Greek verb “tithêmi” originally means “to place”, “to put”. But it has at least 25 different uses.One of them is “shed”, “take off” (one’s clothes). I think this is the one that best fits the present context. The image is one of “shedding” your life for others. I think we shoud see in this the “voluntary” aspect of the act, as opposed to simply “dying”. A good translation, in my view, would be “sacrifices his life”.

Verbum