Altruism: Does selflessness exist?

[thunderballs75]

Does true, unconditional, selflessness exist? Isn’t everything we do, even for others, gratifying to ourselves

For instance, people will say that it is altruistic to give away your money and possessions to the poor. However, isn’t it in the end just pleasing to yourself, because you feel better? And if we do it because of fear of God, aren’t you doing it simply so that you may enjoy the pleasure of heaven?

The other common example is the soldier who jumps on a grenade. However, isn’t his concern grounded in living up to his moral code, and in making sure he does the “right thing” so that he won’t feel bad later?

There of course many examples, but my main point is, doesn’t all selflessness and concern for others necessarily end up being pleasing to yourself?

God bless.

 

[hatsoff]

Yes.

However…

That does not diminish the importance of the differences between a person who is interested in other people’s interests and a person who is disinterested in other people’s interests. In short, society as a whole values individuals whose self-interests take social interests into account.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I recall a story of Lincoln and a friend discussing this while traveling. At one point they came across a sow mired, and going down, in mud patch. Lincoln stopped, got out and pulled her to safety, at some cost to his clothes.

His friend commented that that could not have been for his own benefit. Lincoln replied that of course it was. If he hadn’t rescued her he would have worried about here for the rest of the day.

 

[Trishie]

God aside, selflessness as an entity doesn’t exist. We are all fallible human beings who have and live in our own awarenesses, and only know each other through others responses, through various avenues of learning, and through our empathy that is based on personal understanding. We can make choices to treat others as we know we wish to be treated…as our human sensitivities, and Christ’s teaching requires. We can make choices to ignore and even hurt others. Sure we can feel good about doing things for others, or not doing what will hurt them, but as humans we can only do the best we can manage.

When speaking in Mathew 25 verses 31-46 of the judgement of souls by Himself, Jesus does not require that we are anything other than human, which means he doesn’t stipulate perfect selflessness. He does require practical charity to others in our lives. Even when delivering the second of the two great commandments, Jesus does not say simply, Love others" rather, He says, “Love others as yourself”…which implicitly commands us to love ourselves…ie He’s not expecting total 'selflessness.

People can and do choose to be incredibly unselfish. St Maximilian Kolbe took the place of a married man and died at the hands of the Nazi’s in his place…of course that meant a martyr’s reward but that wasn’t why he did it.

I remember a father a few years ago whose family were trapped in a burning caravan/ mobile home. He got them all out and drove 20 miles to hospital…but with 90% burns on his body. He of course then promptly died. I doubt he was totally selfish, but this choice was…unless you want to point out that to know his loved ones were safe was selfish! That wasn’t the point. As a human he loved them and was willing to risk himself utterly. What does it take to walk into fire!!!

I have a sister who with her husband raised their own five, but in the meantime also adopted, not fostered, two handicapped children. One was severly handicapped and requires enormous help, given lovingly. My brother and his wife raised children of their own but also adopted three handicapped children, one requiring many surgeries. Are these crazy/wonderful people totally selfless and does God expect them to be? They are just human, fallible like the rest of humankind, but they had the courage to make unselfish…or simple generous choices…that meant joy and opportunity for persons that may have remained marginal instead of become cherished family.
My siblings would not claim to be selfless, in their honestly and good nature, they recognize that these choices have lifelong consequences, but the made them willingly and with love.

As human beings, we do the best we can manage to be loving to others…but none of us can see ourselves as having something as absolute as total selflessness …can we? I sure can’t, myself…I just try to love the best I can, sometimes I can, sometimes I get it wrong and mess up, but I try the best I can manage to love others even when it costs, as do so many of us!

 

[shoewindow3000]

There are maybe four levels of love.

You can love yourself for your own sake. This is the lowest form of love.

You can love God for you sake. This is a little better.

You can love God for His sake and for your sake. This is how we should live of our earthly lives.

Now, there is a highest form of love, a supernatural form. It only appears for fleeting moments in this life, but the saints and angels in Heaven experience ONLY this form of love constantly, and they have it for all of eternity…

…and that is to love God ONLY for His sake!

 

[tonyrey]

Does true, unconditional, selflessness exist?

Yes! When we are oblivious of ourselves.

Isn’t everything we do, even for others, gratifying to ourselves?

No! We may find what we are doing repugnant.

There of course many examples, but my main point is, doesn’t all selflessness and concern for others necessarily end up being pleasing to yourself?

No! You may detest yourself for doing what is right. If you know a person has loved you deeply for many years and will have no one to live for if you do not reciprocate that love you may hate yourself for causing such unhappiness. It is not always gratifying to do the right thing and sometimes it causes you great suffering. Nor does it give you mental satisfaction because you wish you were not in that situation. You are tempted to detest every aspect of it. You detest the fact that the person loves you, the fact that you cannot reciprocate and the fact that you are in that situation. You may even wish you had never been born…

 

[Dameedna]

Altruism as you are describing it does not exist.

Every single thing we do, provides us with some benefit. Wether it’s choice, instinct or ego. No-one does anything without somekind of “personal” goal or benefit.

The best way I’ve ever seen this issue addressed was by Scott Peck in his book the Road less travelled. He also admited there is not such thing as altruism in it’s purest form. No such thing, meaning even God…is not completely altruistic. He does have a Goal, which is his desire for our love. It’s a difficult concept that I’d rather not debate.HOWEVER…If you are looking for advice on how to deal with this dilema in real live here’s how Peck described it for me, in my own words.

We are all selfish in everything we do, but there is a difference between “smart” selfishness and “stupid” selfishness.Smart selfishness would be defined as any act that can enhance your own, or another persons spiritual growth.Stupid selfishness would be defined as any act that enhances your own, or anothers current state in accordance with your current will, and not your spiritual growth.

The point is…WHY do you do something? There is nothing wrong in facing that most of what you will do, will alway’s be self-motivated. You just have to put something “higher” than your own* immediate will*. IE your long term growth as a human.

Here’s a quick example.

You get a plate of hot chips in front of you(thick fries with gravy). Your immediate(selfish) self say’s “satisfy me” and you eat it.The smart(selfish) self say’s, for my own sake I need to not eat this because it will make me unhealthy. So I will refrain.

Both are 'selfish" motivations.

One is based on immediate will, the other is based on a more fundamental and higher belief that you are worth something and that your life has more meaning that just a single human desire.

See? it’s still selfish…but it’s smart, or stupid.

Hope that makes sense

Cheers

P.S Any human that ever claims they are completely altruistic, is lying. Don’t trust them.

 

[tonyrey]

It is sometimes argued that it is impossible to think and act selflessly. From one point of view that is true because we cannot detach ourselves from ourselves and pretend we don’t exist! Everything we think and do is related to ourselves but it does not follow that everything we think and do is for ourselves.

The success of science amply demonstrates that it is possible to be totally objective and disregard our own beliefs, tastes, values and inclinations. When scientists are at work they are oblivious of themselves and compelled to accept the results of their observations and experiments in the cold, impersonal light of logic and facts.They become scientists for personal reasons and continue to be scientists for personal reasons but it is absurd to say that every single thought and action is motivated by self-interest. In the course of their work they are so absorbed they forget that they exist!

So it is with persons who are deeply in love. **Initially **their love **may **be motivated by self-interest but then they identify themselves totally with the other person and are no longer aware of themselves. Their primary interest and concern is the other person. You may call this selfish but that is a distortion of the meaning of the word. If we choose to die because of our love for some one and renounce everything we are and have in this world it is not for the sake of our mental satisfaction. It is for the sake of **their **survival or happiness. It is a very crude view of human nature to interpret everything we think and do as the result of inbuilt and programmed egoism. It is understandable though if one believes we are no more than descendants of apelike ancestors rather than persons created for love…

 

[Contarini]

Does true, unconditional, selflessness exist? Isn’t everything we do, even for others, gratifying to ourselves

Of course. All human beings seek happiness. Nothing wrong with that. Pre-Reformation Christian thought generally taught that this was perfectly natural–we find our true happiness in God, and love our neighbor by desiring that same happiness for them. The Reformation upset this by arguing that a person who truly loves God will put their neighbor’s happiness (even eternal happiness) above their own. This was part of the attack on “works righteousness.” It sounds noble and it has captivated Westerners for 500 years, especially in the form given it by Kant. But it’s a dead end. It’s back-to-front psychology and inevitably promotes hypocrisy.

Edwin

 

[Norminha]

I believe with God’s grace everything is possible, even for one to become selfless. But grace can’t be attained without an intense prayer life, first.
The word altruism, used in the Christian context means self-sacrifice, the opposite of selfishness. In other words it is a depiction of love, the love that can’t be expressed with words only but with deeds. If we looked at the crucifix, there’s the perfect LOVE.

 

[Lethe]

Well, I think atheists who die to save others are completely selfless. They will get nothing out of it from their belief - they will have no afterlife, there will be little time to feel good about it and that will probably be overshadowed by physical pain…

Also, I dont think the fact you ‘feel good’ after an act of kindness is the motive for doing it in most cases. If you’re giving to the poor because you want to help people, then it is selfless. Youre giving up something of yours for others. The feeling of pleasure afterwards is not the aim of the good act.

 

[James_S_Saint]

Imagine that you were surrounded by 10 other people. Each had agreed to do only what serves another to live as joyfully and eternally as possible. It was otherwise forbidden to act directly for one’s own sake.

You find that your focus, by necessity, leaves yourself and is very busy attending to the very many things that others more usually do for themselves.

You learn so very much of the true needs of life by having to directly serve them to others. And you find that there is nothing of yourself left wanting for your attention and thus miss not your self focus and familiar fear. All is being done for you, even your education and immersion in the spirit of loving. Something outside you is causing the inside of you to be purified and without fear.

One day, you begin to wonder of the childishness of trying to defend and live for yourself when 10 people can do for you so very much more for you than you could have ever done for yourself and they can cause you to forget your worries and sins of the past.

Of course the practicality soon displays that to lovingly help others help you, you must do some things for yourself, but for their sake and thus not violate the agreement.

Such is the agreement, wisdom, and church of total love.

Does it really exist? What name would you give such an living organism?