Am I a dissenter if I reject Catholic teaching on Just Wage and Labor Unions?

[Bartolome_Casas]

I honestly don’t think it is really possible to be very clear anymore on who is and who isn’t a dissenter in the Catholic Church. There are voices who are very sure, but on closer inspection they seem to be mostly full of sound and fury.

When I read Pope Benedict XVI, I see him writing and teaching with a high degree of humility, generosity and respect for subtle points and complexities. Despite his one-time reputation as a “doctrine czar,” I think in reality he is concerned more with the heart of matter, not legalistic or doctrinaire conformity.

Yet, even that view will immediately be disputed by many, so, nothing is solved, really.

Life goes on. Maybe forums like this really aren’t that helpful. Maybe we all should just pray more.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I honestly don’t think it is really possible to be very clear anymore on who is and who isn’t a dissenter in the Catholic Church. There are voices who are very sure, but on closer inspection they seem to be mostly full of sound and fury.

In this case (as in others, I think) dissent from the doctrine is really a very serious spiritual illness- that is, a refusal to love one’s neighbor as Christ commanded.

When I read Pope Benedict XVI, I see him writing and teaching with a high degree of humility, generosity and respect for subtle points and complexities. Despite his one-time reputation as a “doctrine czar,” I think in reality he is concerned more with the heart of matter, not legalistic or doctrinaire conformity.

Yet, even that view will immediately be disputed by many, so, nothing is solved, really.

Life goes on. Maybe forums like this really aren’t that helpful. Maybe we all should just pray more.

Ah, yes, prayer… but what is prayer, really, when you get to the heart of the matter?

 

[RCIA4]

Yes you are in violation of Catholic social teaching… I will pray for you that you reject the wickedness of capitalism and come to embrace the God given economic system ordained by the Church…

Distributism…

 

[TheMc]

Yes you are in violation of Catholic social teaching… I will pray for you that you reject the wickedness of capitalism and come to embrace the God given economic system ordained by the Church…

Distributism…

Sarcasm? I hope?

 

[Owlpride]

Yes you are in violation of Catholic social teaching… I will pray for you that you reject the wickedness of capitalism and come to embrace the God given economic system ordained by the Church…

Distributism…

no thanks.

 

[LiseTravis]

One of the biggest problems with unions today is that they aren’t really around for the good of workers in all cases, or even in most cases, anymore. Most people aren’t working in sweatshops for $0.09 an hour. I have seen first hand that many union leaders are selfish leaders looking out for themselves. They say it’s for the kids, then turn around and tell teachers they can’t do after-school gardening programs with kids because of contract restrictions. It’s for the kids?

If people are severely marginalized, then yes, they can unionize, but today, “severely marginalized” workers are practically non-existent in my experience.

Also, the church does not teach that you must be able to unionize whenever you want and do whatever you want with your union rites. There are limits there as well. So no, you are not dissenting.

Glad to hear from someone else who holds these views. I agree with you 100%. Sometimes I feel like I'm one of the very few people who understand what today's labor unions are up to.

 

[TheMc]

Glad to hear from someone else who holds these views. I agree with you 100%. Sometimes I feel like I’m one of the very few people who understand what today’s labor unions are up to.

Indeed. Of course, there may be exceptions, but as I see it, most union leaders (at least around here) are quite greedy and self interested. The union around here has a huge multimilion office complex, with an amazing property. But it’s all for the workers?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Well, I don’t know why anyone would disagree with Catholic teaching who is Catholic. Catholics should support labor unions that support the common good (think Catholic labor unions in Germany in the 19th century), but be against labor unions that hurt the common good (think Marxist labor unions in Germany in the 19th century). Unions shouldn’t be too connected with political parties, and they should be supporting the common good, not just their own agenda at the expense of others. Labor unions are local, and generally Catholic teaching supports things that are more local. And every worker has the right to a wage that can support himself and his family. I believe the economy should serve the worker, not the other way around. I think this is what the Church teaches as well.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Most people aren’t working in sweatshops for $0.09 an hour.

Ok we are talking 2005 statistics here. About 900 milion people live on less than a dollar a day, about half the world population lives on less than $2.50 per day, about eighty percent of the world population lives on less than $10 per day.

globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

Maybe not $0.09 per hour, but the rich nations abuse and take advantage of poor countries, and scriptures have more to say about justice for the poor, than they do for pro life.

And if you are pro life, be aware that 22,000 children die needlessly every day from grinding poverty, starvation and preventable diseases. In the time it has taken me to make this reply, another hundred children have died needlessly.

We trade unfairly and take advantage of cheap labour in poor countries.

 

[Abu]

RCIA4 #22
I will pray for you that you reject the wickedness of capitalism and come to embrace the God given economic system ordained by the Church…

The “wickedness of capitalism” is a figment of the imagination, but much worse, this poster rejects Christ and His Popes who emphatically affirm free enterprise in commerce and business, but “ordain” no models. This poster needs a dollop of commonsense, faith and reason.
Swiss Guy #27

And every worker has the right to a wage that can support himself and his family. I believe the economy should serve the worker, not the other way around. I think this is what the Church teaches as well.

Certainly and On fixing a wage, in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, Pius XI asserted “the condition of a business and of the one carrying it on must also be taken into account; for it would be unjust to demand excessive wages which a business cannot stand without its ruin and consequent calamity to the workers.” (#72). Even here, this does not consider the effect of reduced employment if the business still operates at all.

This particular insight clearly shows the appreciation of what Pope John Paul II called “the right of economic initiative” in the economic laws discovered by the Catholic Late Scholastics and the operation of cause and effect in a free economy based on the common good of society. It recognises that unemployment may result from attempts to force wage increases which are unrelated to, or out of sync with, the effects on supply and demand for the goods or services produced by a business or an industry.

It is vital to realise the development in Catholic Social teaching that has occurred. On wage fixing the Catholic Late Scholastics favoured leaving wage determination to the ‘common estimation’ of the market, since any other method is inherently arbitrary and leads to endless complications.

Eric Hyom #28
We trade unfairly and take advantage of cheap labour in poor countries.

“We”? Blame the stupid governments of both China and the West. Rather, instead of allowing China to export manufactured goods with its artificial exchange rate, tariffs could be applied by the free world and the proceeds used to reduce company taxes in the West to signal that Western Companies relocate to their country of origin.