Am I crazy to consider myself a Christian and believe this, or do you, as a Christian, identify with some parts of this?

[anon87900350]

I believe that if it is in existence, it is part of God. Even so, one distinction does make sense to me: the distinction between the creator and the creation, which is essentially the creator’s will. Today’s definition of Jesus as the ‘son’ separate from creation seems to be a man-made misinterpretation of the true mystery of God. To me, Jesus must be the consciousness that encompasses all of creation, and the witness to all of creation…otherwise Christianity seems…incomplete to me. He represents the perfect state where " all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" (Colossians 1:19). He’s one with God’s will. All lesser consciousness are part of this ultimate creation, Jesus. All of unseen and seen universe is a play between the Father (creator), and the Son (the only real creation). That’s how I make sense of the “only begotten son”. We are part of this play because we are part of the Son, him as the head, and us as the body, each one of us making up different parts of the body. As we increasingly realize that we are one–that we are part of this divine wholeness that is Jesus, and our actions towards self and others mirror that realization; we move up to a higher level of consciousness.When you do that, you are rejecting this world of duality, and relying on the created, and the ultimate creation to guide you through ALL trials posed by the mirage of duality so that you may come to the truth. This is why Jesus emphasized poverty and denial of material world so much. It is an outward sign of the denial of your spiritual self and physical self as separate from Jesus, and a process which enables merging with the Son. Basically anything that feeds your sense of self as separate from God, and in the physical world works to your detriment in reaching God. In order to deny yourself, and affirm that only Jesus, the ultimate creation created by God exists, you have to be humble. This is why Jesus hated the arrogance of the Pharisees, and emphasized that meek will inherit the kingdom. Unfortunately, atheist today are prey to that evil. Religion and spirituality is NOT about you, it’s about understanding that only God and his will manifested (Jesus) exists. The more you affirm that eternal truth with all your being, the more you will see the mysteries of this world explained through divine knowledge, and the closer you will be to your true home, in Jesus. Evil to me is duality, and Satan perhaps is the pure embodiment of that. This principle of duality was created by God and thrust upon the ultimate creation so that Creation/Jesus was separated into lesser consciousnesses, while the perfect state, Jesus, still witnesses these parts of Him. God has given Jesus power over Satan, just as oneness has power over duality, just as whole comes before parts, just as united we stand, divided we fall. Thus the more we rely on Jesus, that easier it become to overcome duality/Evil/Satan. I think God lovingly waits for us to overcome this duality and come to oneness, and all the pain and suffering in this world is part of that overcoming. Finally, the way to overcome is to continue to give everything to God in the midst of your deepest pain, and in your darkest hour so that God slowly brings you into oneness with him by merging you with his will, Jesus.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I believe that if it is in existence, it is part of God. Even so, one distinction does make sense to me: the distinction between the creator and the creation, which is essentially the creator’s will. Today’s definition of Jesus as the ‘son’ separate from creation seems to be a man-made misinterpretation of the true mystery of God. To me, Jesus must be the consciousness that encompasses all of creation, and the witness to all of creation…otherwise Christianity seems…incomplete to me. He represents the perfect state where " all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell" (Colossians 1:19). He’s one with God’s will. All lesser consciousness are part of this ultimate creation, Jesus. All of unseen and seen universe is a play between the Father (creator), and the Son (the only real creation). That’s how I make sense of the “only begotten son”. We are part of this play because we are part of the Son, him as the head, and us as the body, each one of us making up different parts of the body. As we increasingly realize that we are one–that we are part of this divine wholeness that is Jesus, and our actions towards self and others mirror that realization; we move up to a higher level of consciousness.When you do that, you are rejecting this world of duality, and relying on the created, and the ultimate creation to guide you through ALL trials posed by the mirage of duality so that you may come to the truth. This is why Jesus emphasized poverty and denial of material world so much. It is an outward sign of the denial of your spiritual self and physical self as separate from Jesus, and a process which enables merging with the Son. Basically anything that feeds your sense of self as separate from God, and in the physical world works to your detriment in reaching God. In order to deny yourself, and affirm that only Jesus, the ultimate creation created by God exists, you have to be humble. This is why Jesus hated the arrogance of the Pharisees, and emphasized that meek will inherit the kingdom. Unfortunately, atheist today are prey to that evil. Religion and spirituality is NOT about you, it’s about understanding that only God and his will manifested (Jesus) exists. The more you affirm that eternal truth with all your being, the more you will see the mysteries of this world explained through divine knowledge, and the closer you will be to your true home, in Jesus. Evil to me is duality, and Satan perhaps is the pure embodiment of that. This principle of duality was created by God and thrust upon the ultimate creation so that Creation/Jesus was separated into lesser consciousnesses, while the perfect state, Jesus, still witnesses these parts of Him. God has given Jesus power over Satan, just as oneness has power over duality, just as whole comes before parts, just as united we stand, divided we fall. Thus the more we rely on Jesus, that easier it become to overcome duality/Evil/Satan. I think God lovingly waits for us to overcome this duality and come to oneness, and all the pain and suffering in this world is part of that overcoming. Finally, the way to overcome is to continue to give everything to God in the midst of your deepest pain, and in your darkest hour so that God slowly brings you into oneness with him by merging you with his will, Jesus.

These are not Catholic teachings, they sound more like some Eastern cult belief. I suggest you stop thinking these thoughts and concentrate on learning what the Catholic Church teaches by studying the Catechism ( linked below ) and other Catholic documents. You might also listen to or watch EWTN more. ewtn.com/

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[Richard_White]

This is not Catholic teaching and therefore NOT true at all. I do NOT agree with or believe in any of the things that you described here; they are all heresy. As Linus said above, stop thinking these thoughts and follow Jesus through the Catholic Church alone.

May God bless you and keep you on the path to holiness.

 

[Dorothy]

aanto88,

Our Lord Jesus Christ gave authority to the Church, and she is our teacher. We don’t have to think about all those deep things and come up with something in our human imagination.

You can count on all that the Church teaches to be what we need to be sanctified.

God created everything good, starting with the angels. One-third of them freely rebelled against God through the sin of pride. That is how evil began.

 

[oldcelt]

aanto88,

Our Lord Jesus Christ gave authority to the Church, and she is our teacher. We don’t have to think about all those deep things and come up with something in our human imagination.

You can count on all that the Church teaches to be what we need to be sanctified.

God created everything good, starting with the angels. One-third of them freely rebelled against God through the sin of pride. That is how evil began.

If so, they did so with the absolute foreknowledge of their creator…according to Christianity.

 

[inocente]

I believe that if it is in existence, it is part of God.

That’s called pantheism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with much of what you have written about oneness but it is put in perspective by Our Lord’s prayer immediately before He went out to be arrested and crucified:

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 **that **all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, **that **they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

John 17

It depends on us whether we are brought to complete unity…

 

[anon87900350]

Correction

When you do that, you are rejecting this world of duality, and relying on the **Creator **and the ultimate Creation(Jesus) to guide you through ALL trials posed by the mirage of duality so that you may come to the truth.

 

[ChainBreaker]

I believe that if it is in existence, it is part of God.

This is not a Christian teaching if what you are saying is that whatever exists is in “essence” God. If your concern is being consistent with what Christians/Catholics hold to be true, then you will have to drop this idea. However if by existence you mean that God is the essence by which and through which all other essences are able to be actual as opposed to nothing at all then there may be some hope of reconciling that view with Christianity.

If you would like to have a purely philosophical debate with no underlying theological or religious assumptions, then i must ask you why you think that whatever exists is necessarily a “part” of God? What do you mean by that?

 

[ChainBreaker]

This is not Catholic teaching and therefore NOT true at all.

But a person will only agree with you if they are committed to the belief that the Catholic faith represents the root of all true as interpreted by the Church. Otherwise you have given no good reason for anybody to agree with you or the authority of the Catholic Church.

The reason i say this is because while you may be comfortable with taken the authority of the Catholic faith on faith, other people see this as an act of blind faith in a human authority and do not see why they should follow suite if they see no good reason to.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Pantheism is the intellectual equivalent of Atheism, as you will find here in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

newadvent.org/cathen/11447b.htm

 

[Aloysium]

I have a number of issues with your description of existence and God. (Not the least of which, having serious problems with visual acuity, is that I find your wall-of-words hurts my brain.)

I would advise that the best explanation is to be found in the Catechism. To the degree that one departs from those teachings, one is in error.

For me, the basic problem with your thesis is that Love is not seen as primary. In fact, the word does not appear even once.
In the Triune Godhead the persons of the Trinity constitute that Love.
Thinking in terms of duality-oneness is limited; all of this here is about relationship.

The best your description can do is:
'. . . the denial of your spiritual self and physical self as separate from Jesus, and a process which enables merging with the Son. Basically anything that feeds your sense of self as separate from God, and in the physical world works to your detriment in reaching God. . . "

Denial will not do it. It is insufficient. One must love.
One surrenders to God, to His will.
It is in loving one’s neighbour that one does His will.
It is in becoming a more loving person, that one becomes more Christ-like.
Becoming more like Christ, loving God, loving one’s fellow man, one is brought into the same relationship that exists between the Father and the Son.

You reach God not by denying yourself, but denying sin within you and giving of yourself.
It is a pretty important distinction because the former approach very likely will lead to merely spiritual pride and, at best, needless suffering alone.

If you are trying to integrate Hindu-Buddhist ideas with Christianity, the best way to do it is to read them from a Christian perspective rather than the other way around.
Do participate in the Church since it is not all about ideas.

 

[anon87900350]

I have a number of issues with your description of existence and God. (Not the least of which, having serious problems with visual acuity, is that I find your wall-of-words hurts my brain.)

I would advise that the best explanation is to be found in the Catechism. To the degree that one departs from those teachings, one is in error.

For me, the basic problem with your thesis is that Love is not seen as primary. In fact, the word does not appear even once.
In the Triune Godhead the persons of the Trinity constitute that Love.
Thinking in terms of duality-oneness is limited; all of this here is about relationship.

The best your description can do is:
'. . . the denial of your spiritual self and physical self as separate from Jesus, and a process which enables merging with the Son. Basically anything that feeds your sense of self as separate from God, and in the physical world works to your detriment in reaching God. . . "

Denial will not do it. It is insufficient. One must love.
One surrenders to God, to His will.
It is in loving one’s neighbour that one does His will.
It is in becoming a more loving person, that one becomes more Christ-like.
Becoming more like Christ, loving God, loving one’s fellow man, one is brought into the same relationship that exists between the Father and the Son.

You reach God not by denying yourself, but denying sin within you and giving of yourself.
It is a pretty important distinction because the former approach very likely will lead to merely spiritual pride and, at best, needless suffering alone.

If you are trying to integrate Hindu-Buddhist ideas with Christianity, the best way to do it is to read them from a Christian perspective rather than the other way around.
Do participate in the Church since it is not all about ideas.

I didn’t mean that only denial of self is enough. Denial of self and realizing only He exists is enough. Yeah, I didn’t emphasize love.True love is necessarily only an aftermath of denial of self and realizing that only He exists. Without that foundation, your love would be limited by duality. By denial, I mean embracing poverty, practicing perfect obedience, perfecting selflessness that does not ask for anything in return, and abstaining from anything that affirms you or others as separate from God,or reinforces you or others as finite, physical, beings. When you are in that state of being, where you experience God in everything, how could you do anything but love? Would there be room for spiritual pride when you don’t even exist apart from being a part of God?

 

[Aloysium]

. . True love is necessarily only an aftermath of denial of self and realizing that only He exists. Without that foundation, your love would be limited by duality. By denial, I mean embracing poverty, practicing perfect obedience, perfecting selflessness that does not ask for anything in return, and abstaining from anything that affirms you or others as separate from God,or reinforces you or others as finite, physical, beings. When you are in that state of being, where you experience God in everything, how could you do anything but love? . . .

Self-denial is not an unhelpful discipline. Traditionally, we go off into the desert to divest ourselves of the ties to that which is of the world.

One has to be careful in these matters and you should enlist the help of someone who can guide you.
The Church makes it so easy. It provides the surest and quickest way to know God.
Why don’t you try it? The Mass, sacraments, good works, prayer, contemplation of Holy writings - it is so easily available.

I would not recommend self-denial as a means to gain greater awareness as it is helpful only if what we are discarding is sin.
It is destructive otherwise. It does not make sense to me to love oneself less. Better to love others more. What God has given us, we ought share with others.

To give to something that is essentially oneself is not love but self-gratification.

We are separate from God and each other; it is because of this that we can be united in love.

I will pray that the Holy Spirit guide all of us in our efforts to know God.

 

[anon87900350]

I would not recommend self-denial as a means to gain greater awareness as it is helpful only if what we are discarding is sin.
It is destructive otherwise. It does not make sense to me to love oneself less. Better to love others more. What God has given us, we ought share with others.

To give to something that is essentially oneself is not love but self-gratification.We are separate from God and each other; it is because of this that we can be united in love.I will pray that the Holy Spirit guide all of us in our efforts to know God.

I think I understand what you’re getting at but I let me clarify what sin means to me. I have a more comprehensive definition of sin. It’s not just about not hurting others, loving others more, and living as the bible tells you to do so. In its purest form, sinless life is abstaining from anything that allows you to regard yourself or anyone else as a physical, mortal being that is of this world, and separate from Him. That includes denying physical and emotional pleasures, and even necessities…shelter, food, sex, selfishness of any sort, desire for power and respect above others, desire for fame and recognition, desire for reciprocation of love etc…etc. Any sort of need or desire besides the desire to experience God will affirm you as human, less than, separate from others and there fore separate from God. This is because by desiring or needing something, you are essentially saying you are lacking in something. The whole point of the spiritual journey is understanding that you’re part of Jesus, and only Jesus truly exists; and therefore you’re lacking in nothing. Yes, that’s difficult to grasp, and yes, these austerities may seem extremely stupid and destructive from an earthly perspective, but I believe it is the most extreme exercise of your faith in Jesus. Yes, you could argue that perfect obedience and sinless life may not possible in the physical world because helping one person might hurt another. Nonetheless, we are called to deny ourselves to the best of our abilities and ask for counsel from God when we don’t know. I believe that firmly. Aren’t we called to go to the extremes on his account since he did the same for us. God is justice, just as he is love, but as our savior, Jesus took the brunt of that justice from God for us by dying a excruciatingly painful death. Is that not extreme? If we consider ourselves his followers, aren’t we supposed to use his life as an example? Here’s how I understand this playing out. Initially, you’re following these austerities to exercise your spiritual muscles and build an absolute faith in Jesus because you know He will give you-- a separate, lesser, entity; the strength to overcome this. At this point, you’re still believing that you are separate from Him. Here, you are in pain when you suffer.As you continue to put your faith in God to resist the illusions of your finiteness, He will draw you closer and closer to him until begin to understand that you live in Christ physically, and mentally; and all that you are, and all that is around you, is only Him. It’s probably incomprehensible at our current state, but I do believe such a state exists. It’s not about suffering alone, loving yourself less, and loving others more. Spirituality is ultimately about faith. By that, I mean perfect faith in Jesus because only He exists in actuality. Once you achieve that realization, you’ll meditate on nothing but Him. You’ll be at peace with everything. You’ll want to change nothing. You’ll desire nothing including necessities. (Saints have been known to go without food, water, or shelter and still be in joy. Take St. Francis for example.)You’ll love everyone and everything, both pleasure and suffering alike. I believe such a love will be beyond reason, or logic, and will flow through you only when you begin to realize it is Christ that lives in you.

I can’t say all this is entirely unbiblical. Jesus did teach denial of self which is essentially selflessness to the extreme. His words, life, and crucifixion is a testament to that.

The below verses in the bible teach denial of self.

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.” “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.” “But I tell you, don’t resist an evildoer. On the contrary, if anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. As for the one who wants to sue you and take away your shirt, let him have your coat as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two.” " Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." “Set your minds on what is above, not on what is on the earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” “Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." ““through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God.”

Also, pious individuals receive the stigmata to expiate for the sins of others. If suffering to overcome bodily and emotional pain was not a huge part of spirituality, I don’t understand why this would occur. St. Theresa of Avila, and St. John Marie Vianney (among many other saints) practiced fasting and body mortification. I don’t think that was needless suffering even though it was self-inflicted. They did it as penance for their sins and the sins of others.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I have a more comprehensive definition of sin. It’s not just about not hurting others, loving others more, and living as the bible tells you to do so. In its purest form, sinless life is abstaining from anything that allows you to regard yourself or anyone else as a physical, mortal being that is of this world, and separate from Him. . . The whole point of the spiritual journey is understanding that you’re part of Jesus, and only Jesus truly exists; and therefore you’re lacking in nothing. Yes, that’s difficult to grasp, and yes, these austerities may seem extremely stupid and destructive from an earthly perspective, but I believe it is the most extreme exercise of your faith in Jesus. . . You’ll be at peace with everything. You’ll want to change nothing. You’ll desire nothing including necessities. (Saints have been known to go without food, water, or shelter and still be in joy. Take St. Francis for example.)You’ll love everyone and everything, both pleasure and suffering alike. I believe such a love will be beyond reason, or logic, and will flow through you only when you begin to realize it is Christ that lives in you. . .

Sin is not about harming others but is a transgression against God.
The spiritual journey is to become more like Jesus, who is the Way.
How can you “love everyone and everything” if it is all illusion, if “only Jesus truly exists”?
It is through what we do that we become who we are. How will your beliefs be reflected in what you do?
As Catholics, we are charitable, we follow the commandments, love God with all our hearts and our neighbours as ourselves, repent of our sins, partake of the eucharist, participate in the mass, contemplate His word and pray so that Christ may live in us. This works.

That’s pretty much all I have to say. Peace.

 

[anon87900350]

Sin is not about harming others but is a transgression against God.
The spiritual journey is to become more like Jesus, who is the Way.

I think saying you are separate from him will limit your journey to be ‘more like Jesus’

How can you “love everyone and everything” if it is all illusion, if “only Jesus truly exists”?

You love everyone and everything because you’re able to realize that He exist within everyone and everything, and is essentially Him, and only him. You’ll love those who have hurt you, you’ll love murderers, you’ll love a newborn infant, you’ll love your own mother all in the same way, just as Jesus would…because you, as a separate entity, will no longer exist, only Him within you. By saying that we cannot be part of Him, you’re even putting a limit on Him.

It is through what we do that we become who we are. How will your beliefs be reflected in what you do?

Yes, it is through what we do that we become who we are, but why we do it, is more important. If you have the foundation that understands that all of this universe is parts of God, you will treat everything/everyone as if they are part of God, with the utmost selflessness,and love. You will feel this intense responsibility to love just as your God would towards you, a part of him. It will become a compulsion. You cannot scale those heights by loving from a human perspective. If believe you’re a human, a lesser entity separate from God; then your love will be finite as well. Only when you acknowledge that is Jesus that lives, and not you–only then will divine love begin to flow.

As Catholics, we are charitable, we follow the commandments, love God with all our hearts and our neighbours as ourselves, repent of our sins, partake of the eucharist, participate in the mass, contemplate His word and pray so that Christ may live in us. This works.

I agree with all of that. I’m talking about the foundation that must be behind all of these great Christian ways. If the foundation is not right, all of these lose their true meaning.