Am I not right here?

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roccoangelo

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Greetings,

I think Gregorian Chant is the most suitable music for liturgy. Others I know disagree and say that drums and guitar are just as suitable… I think having the priest face the east during Mass, that is, leading the congregation towards the second coming of Christ, is the proper posture. Others I know disagree and say that it doesn’t matter what direction the priest faces… I think having the tabernacle centraly located, in line with the naive of the church, is the most distinctive, prominant and honorable place for Him as the King of kings. Others I know disagree and would prefer Him off to the side… I can go on and on, but I know it’s not nessecary and I know you all get my point loud and clear. Of course all of the above examples presume that I’m making my position the correct one and that everyone elses therefore is incorrect. Am I not right on this though? and if I am, how does/can one gain or regain a proper sense of the Sacred??

Pax Tecum,
Rocco
 
AquinaSavio said:
We’ve been trying to figure that one out for forty years. 😃
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Oh it’s been longer than that…if every Tridentine Mass totally captured the sense of the sacred, it wouldn’t have changed at all. The mystery of the Eucharist, unfortunately, is the only part of the Mass that is truly perfect.
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roccoangelo:
Greetings,

I think Gregorian Chant is the most suitable music for liturgy. Others I know disagree and say that drums and guitar are just as suitable… I think having the priest face the east during Mass, that is, leading the congregation towards the second coming of Christ, is the proper posture. Others I know disagree and say that it doesn’t matter what direction the priest faces… I think having the tabernacle centraly located, in line with the naive of the church, is the most distinctive, prominant and honorable place for Him as the King of kings. Others I know disagree and would prefer Him off to the side… I can go on and on, but I know it’s not nessecary and I know you all get my point loud and clear. Of course all of the above examples presume that I’m making my position the correct one and that everyone elses therefore is incorrect. Am I not right on this though? and if I am, how does/can one gain or regain a proper sense of the Sacred??

Pax Tecum,
Rocco
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Gregorian chant deserve a prominent place in the liturgy of the Latin Rite- the Second Vatican Council reiterated that. The other things you mentioned are also great. On the surface, you seem to be asking “how can we get other people to like these things, and get churches to use them?” At the risk of sounding new-agey, I will say that the sense of the Sacred, is most importantly in each individual. You cannot excuse yourself for not praying because you weren’t surrounded by statues. You cannot excuse yourself for getting distracted in Mass because of liturgical abuse or because of bad music (though you have the right- maybe even the responsibility- to address these problems if/when they arise). When Catholics live as they ought to live- in all areas of their lives- the liturgy will reflect that, and we will change the world.
 
I agree. Gregorian Chant is the best music for the Church and the Mass. Its mostly what drew me to the Church. The process was like this…

Gregorian Chant…
Bible’s compilation…
Dream about monk/nun copyists bent over sweet Scripture…
Research about monks/nuns…
Became aware of verses I never knew the Bible had!
Attended Mass–and cried afterward since I felt at “home”…
finally, the comparisons between Protestant and Catholic beliefs.

So really…its been quite the journey after all the religion-dabbling I did. To this day, I still listen to Gregorian Chant.

Has anyone ever tried listening to Gregorian Chant while they’re in pain? Its a natural painkiller. It happens to me and somebody did a small study about it and confirmed this. I read this study so long ago, I couldn’t give you the source. But I’m happy to share it with you, nonetheless! 🙂
 
I love everything about the tridentine mass, except maybe the only change that I’d make is making the readings even at the low mass in the vernacular. I think, and so does the Holy Father, that the priest and congregation should be facing the same direction as if leading us like a good pastor should do. I also think that although the Apostles probably received the Blessed Sacrament in their hands, by receiving Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue creates a greater awareness of the whole reverence and sacredness of the Holy Eucharist. When we stand and receive in our hands, people tend to easily forget that it is Jesus which they are receiving. To many, due to poor catechism, and I feel just receiving in the hands, people tend to treat it as a nother peice of bread. I think we should kneel just because it is Jesus, and no one is truly worthy to receive Him. Do we not kneel during exposition and benediction? The tabernacle should be in the front, in the center on the altar. I think this way we’re all facing Him and worshipping Him together. When, its off to the side, sometimes it’s hard to find, and since our attention is drawn to the altar during Mass wouldnt it make sense for the tabernacle to be in the front where are focus is? Sadly, poor catechism and liturgical abuse has led to a drop in the beleif in true presence. My biggest pet peeve, is when ppl genuflect at the wrong time or they do that semi-genuflect 😃 . I think people just do it out of habit, and dont really remember why we are genuflecting. It bothers me when people genuflect on the left knee, and when ppl do a quarter of a genuflexion which looks like a bad curtsey. 😃
 
seremina said:
I agree. Gregorian Chant is the best music for the Church and the Mass. Its mostly what drew me to the Church. The process was like this…

Gregorian Chant…
Bible’s compilation…
Dream about monk/nun copyists bent over sweet Scripture…
Research about monks/nuns…
Became aware of verses I never knew the Bible had!
Attended Mass–and cried afterward since I felt at “home”…
finally, the comparisons between Protestant and Catholic beliefs.

So really…its been quite the journey after all the religion-dabbling I did. To this day, I still listen to Gregorian Chant.

Has anyone ever tried listening to Gregorian Chant while they’re in pain? Its a natural painkiller. It happens to me and somebody did a small study about it and confirmed this. I read this study so long ago, I couldn’t give you the source. But I’m happy to share it with you, nonetheless! 🙂
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You know what? I think the problem is we dont have enough volunteer singers, maybe. I propose that at after boys have finished their first catechism class and have received First Holy Communion, they should have to do a semester’s worth of mandatory alter serving and latin. Then confirmation candidates should have to sing in choir/altar serve for the two years of their CCD, that way we can have a number of men singers to sing gregorian chant.
 
roccoangelo,

No, you’re not right, unless you believe that all the teachings of the Church since Vat II are wrong.

In that case, start praying now that you will be elected Pope when Pope Benedict XVI is no longer able to serve.
 
Cat said:
roccoangelo,

No, you’re not right, unless you believe that all the teachings of the Church since Vat II are wrong.

In that case, start praying now that you will be elected Pope when Pope Benedict XVI is no longer able to serve.
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Actually, everything he said is in line with Church teachings (Sacramentum Caritatis)…

It isn’t in line with the “Spirit of Vatican II.” 😉
 
roccoangelo said:
all of the above examples presume that I’m making my position the correct one and that everyone elses therefore is incorrect.
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to me, everything you’ve cited are matters of style, not substance. personally, i favor a high mass style, would love to hear gregorian chants and all, but i know in my parish “it aint gonna happen” – where are we going to find a chorus of monks? --and i find the way we celebrate mass very beautiful, moving and sacred the way it is.

i know i’ll catch heck for saying so here but arguing that the modern liturgy is “wrong” is like arguing that strawberry ice cream is incorrect. de gustibus non est disputandem.
 
According to the Vatican II documents, Gregorian chant has “pride of place” and is the normal music for Mass. Polyphony is also good. Other kinds of music come afterwards. Also, organ is the best instrument to use (though a capella is the normal normal form), and other instrument come after that.

Vatican II documents also say that every parish is supposed to teach every parishioner how to sing chant – at least all the most common Mass parts and hymns, anyway.

Yup, we really need to do more stuff from Vatican II!
 
Cat said:
roccoangelo,

No, you’re not right, unless you believe that all the teachings of the Church since Vat II are wrong.

In that case, start praying now that you will be elected Pope when Pope Benedict XVI is no longer able to serve.
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Aquina is correct. Rocco hasn’t stated anything that goes against Church teaching since Vatican II.

The “Spirit of Vatican II” (whatever that is) has taken the place of the actual documents of Vatican II.
 
orgel_maestro said:
they do that semi-genuflect 😃 . I think people just do it out of habit, and dont really remember why we are genuflecting. It bothers me when people genuflect on the left knee, and when ppl do a quarter of a genuflexion which looks like a bad curtsey. 😃
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Sometimes people have bad knees and would not be able to get back up. It does not mean, they aren’t going down to the floor in their hearts. 😉
 
No, you’re not right, unless you believe that all the teachings of the Church since Vat II are wrong.
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Cat,

I’ve read/studied over half of the 16 council documents that make up Vat II, and I believe in what they teach. Can you explain/elaborate what you believe (you’re position) according to you’re above quote please? I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say.

Pax Domini,
Rocco
 
No, you’re not right, unless you believe that all the teachings of the Church since Vat II are wrong.
Click to expand...
Cat,

I’ve read/studied over half of the 16 council documents that make up Vat II, and I believe in what they teach. Can you explain/elaborate what you believe (you’re position) according to you’re above quote please? I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say.

Pax Domini,
Rocco
 
I would simply refer you to the Holy Fathers mission with regards to Holy Mass. He wants to bring back THE SACRED.
I have seen some wierd things happening at Holy Mass, dancing, women waving their arms up & down supposed to be conducting the congregation on new SONGS I mean Songs, with no place in the Holy Mass.

Young people, I believe are definately switching of for a number of reasons, but it is factual, that in many instances, they have lost, or never had, a sense of the SACRED.

My son, 22 years, just cringes if we go to a church, in which, “anything goes”, he says, I know I am in His Presence, but I am distracted by the lack of peace, dignity, & a total lack of awareness of THE LIVING GOD.

Peace be with you,
Jubilatae
 
Sorry, roccoangelo,

I am a fairly new Catholic and I haven’t studied all the documents of Vatican II. I’ve read through the ones pertaining to music because I play piano for Masses and wanted to have some guidelines.

So I’m not about to argue with someone like you who HAS studied the documents. I don’t know that much.

But others do know a LOT about the Vatican II documents and about all the other writings of the Catholic Church.

I will place my trust in those people who are in charge of my diocese. They HAVE read the documents and the other writings and the Bible, and they have allowed the use of drums and other instruments, or other musical styles in the Catholic churches in my city and throughout the diocese. They have allowed the priest to face the people. They have allowed all kinds of practices that you and your kind label as 'irreverent" and “sacrilegious” and “inappropriate for Mass.”

I believe that these people in my diocese, these “authorities,” know as much or more than you do about what is “sacred” in the liturgy. I trust that they are making the proper decisions about liturgy in our diocese. I certainly don’t trust myself to make those decisions. Even if I had read and studied the Vat II documents, I am still not the one that the Lord has placed “in charge,” and it would not be right for me to pronounce those kinds of judgements.

I believe that my Bishop, Thomas Doran, of the Diocese of Rockford, is one of the GOOD Bishops in the United States. His doctoral degree is in Canon Law. You go ahead and look him up online and see if you find any wicked thing in him. I don’t think you will.

BTW, our diocese actually has a surplus of vocations, which is quite unusual from what I understand. I’ve been told that this doesn’t happen in the “liberal” dioceses that are practicing “sacrilege” in the Masses. So we must be doing something right here.
 
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Rocco:
I’ve read/studied over half of the 16 council documents that make up Vat II, and I believe in what they teach. Can you explain/elaborate what you believe (you’re position) according to you’re above quote please? I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say.
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Rocco,

Have you read Unitatis Redintegratio yet…then compared it to the constant teaching of the Popes and Councils prior to Vatican II? There are some very serious questions with respect to this document.

Gorman
 
Please don’t take the thread off topic with side issues. Start new threads instead. Thank you.
 
Sorry, roccoangelo,
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I am a fairly new Catholic and I haven’t studied all the documents of Vatican II. I’ve read through the ones pertaining to music because I play piano for Masses and wanted to have some guidelines.
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Cat,

No worries. It’s good that you’ve taken the initiative to read them. I’m no expert either, but I’d suggest starting off by reading the smaller documents and working you’re way up to the larger ones (that’s what I did). They’re actually fairly easy to read.

On a different note, obviously our church has allowed both the traditional and modern forms of liturgy to exist, and you and I probably won’t agree on each other’s positions, so for the sake of charity towards each other, how’s about we simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Pax Domini,
Rocco
 
Cat said:
Sorry, roccoangelo,

I am a fairly new Catholic and I haven’t studied all the documents of Vatican II. I’ve read through the ones pertaining to music because I play piano for Masses and wanted to have some guidelines.

So I’m not about to argue with someone like you who HAS studied the documents. I don’t know that much.

But others do know a LOT about the Vatican II documents and about all the other writings of the Catholic Church.

I will place my trust in those people who are in charge of my diocese. They HAVE read the documents and the other writings and the Bible, and they have allowed the use of drums and other instruments, or other musical styles in the Catholic churches in my city and throughout the diocese. They have allowed the priest to face the people. They have allowed all kinds of practices that you and your kind label as 'irreverent" and “sacrilegious” and “inappropriate for Mass.”

I believe that these people in my diocese, these “authorities,” know as much or more than you do about what is “sacred” in the liturgy. I trust that they are making the proper decisions about liturgy in our diocese. I certainly don’t trust myself to make those decisions. Even if I had read and studied the Vat II documents, I am still not the one that the Lord has placed “in charge,” and it would not be right for me to pronounce those kinds of judgements.

I believe that my Bishop, Thomas Doran, of the Diocese of Rockford, is one of the GOOD Bishops in the United States. His doctoral degree is in Canon Law. You go ahead and look him up online and see if you find any wicked thing in him. I don’t think you will.

BTW, our diocese actually has a surplus of vocations, which is quite unusual from what I understand. I’ve been told that this doesn’t happen in the “liberal” dioceses that are practicing “sacrilege” in the Masses. So we must be doing something right here.
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Cat,

There are cradle Catholics like me who find out how much we don’t know about the Catholic faith everyday. Don’t sweat not studying all the documents of Vatican II, I’ve only read parts of *Lumen Gentium, Gaudium et Spes, *and Sacrosanctum Concilium. What I have read of those documents is not exactly what I’ve seen implemented and heard being taught.

You’re right about your bishop. Bishop Doran is the finest bishop in the state of Illinois and the 3rd best bishop in the United States behind Bishop Bruskewitz of Lincoln and Archbishop Burke of St. Louis.

It’s a sign of humility to say I don’t know everything, I will trust my bishop. A person has to discern whether or not his bishop is orthodox and faithful to the Holy Father. You certainly have done that and have determined you can trust Bishop Doran.

You’ll find one of the best things about being Catholic is that you learn something wonderful about the faith everyday if you take the time to do it. You’re doing it Cat. Don’t ever get discouraged.
 
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