Am I right to be offended by this? Muslims,please reply

[Phaedra777]

I heard that as a Jewish joke in the early 1970’s. Which means my parents’ generation probably heard it as the same in the 1940’s…

 

[mrajax]

Guys, can we take all this stereotype stuff out and consider the text of the joke itself? I wasn’t even aware of the Muslims being cheap stereotype, honestly.

If people really are going to be be so offended at my jokes it really is best to avoid making them in front of people who are offended. Honestly, it’s always like this; I make a horrid joke, everyone blows up, others make worse ones than me everyone laughs. It’s mind-boggling why everything I do turns out to be wrong.

 

[shainski]

In written communication, you can’t observe the reactions of your audience.

If you were in the company of friends, you might be able to sense that they are uncomfortable with a joke, which may allow you to backtrack or apologize.

When email was new, I was amazed how things came across from others. Humor, sarcasm and misspellings/grammar mistakes- all are dangerous in that venue. And, I even went back and reread some of my own emails and realized that I sometimes came across as angry or short when I hadn’t intended it.

My problem with social media is that you are talking to a large group of people. When I go to a party, I don’t shout my thoughts to everyone present. I’m usually talking with an individual or small group. But with Facebook, everyone is listening in.

The more people that are present, the more vanilla and generic I become.

And if you are going to violate that by speaking about a group of people - self-deprecating humor will generally be better accepted than joking about a group you are not part of.

 

[Xantippe]

Guys, can we take all this stereotype stuff out and consider the text of the joke itself? I wasn’t even aware of the Muslims being cheap stereotype, honestly.

If people really are going to be be so offended at my jokes it really is best to avoid making them in front of people who are offended. Honestly, it’s always like this; I make a horrid joke, everyone blows up, others make worse ones than me everyone laughs. It’s mind-boggling why everything I do turns out to be wrong.

They’ve got a better sense of their audience than you do–that’s all.

A joke needs to be just a little edgy for the audience, but not too far. It’s tricky figuring out where that zone is located, and it doesn’t sound like you’ve got the knack.

 

[Phaedra777]

Guys, can we take all this stereotype stuff out and consider the text of the joke itself? I wasn’t even aware of the Muslims being cheap stereotype, honestly.
.

The joke DEPENDS on the stereotype of cheapness, which is why we have pointed out that this is originally a Jewish joke. Being labeled dumb is a stereotype of Polish and blonde jokes and on and on.

 

[Cromwell4]

Of course you are being insulting. Would you say it to/about Jews? Obviously not. You wouldn’t feel so bad about it, if it weren’t so offensive Must have a conscience somewhere but I thought atheists didnt have consciences or guilt feelings. LOL.

It seems that you are crassly ignorant of Islam and its teachings - one of the great religions of the world. Nice when people are mature enough to respect others’ beliefs and their way of life. I thought that’s what USA was all about. This is going for cheap laughs - an ancient antisemite ‘jibe’. Try ‘free beer’ the next time.

How about seriously learning something about this religion before mocking it. What if I said, atheists are probably the dumbest creatures on this planet (for what it’s worth). They dont even know if there is a God and then dont know what to do about it.
Seems like you made an honest mistake & now regret it. So God ( whom you dont believe in) will forgive you.

 

[Xantippe]

The joke DEPENDS on the stereotype of cheapness, which is why we have pointed out that this is originally a Jewish joke. Being labeled dumb is a stereotype of Polish and blonde jokes and on and on.

Yep.

 

[Anglewannabe]

So today I wrote a small joke on facebook that in all honesty was only meant in good fun. I didn’t mean to offend anyone, nor is the nature of the joke actually offensive as it doesn’t ridicule anything having to do with religion per se. It went exactly like this and I quote:

“What’s a Muslim man’s biggest moral dilemma? Free bacon.”

With all due respect (and I am Catholic) I think that is VERY offensive and has EVERYTHING to do with religion. If a religion is mentioned in a joke, it is a religious joke period

but what is actually making me angry is that other friends get to post a lot of stuff ridiculing religion, particularly the Catholic one, with me actually going out of my way to call them out on the offensiveness of their ‘jokes’.

Well, if you are going out of your way to call other people out, of course the first time you step out of line they will all jump on you

Am I right to be peeved that people got offended at so easy a target?

If the target is ‘so easy’ all the more reason it is wrong to shoot at it. Most people get more mad at the thief who rips off the 90 years old lady than the thief who rips off the 20 year old muscle man.

If it is really a case where your friends can make offensive jokes and won’t let you do the same, maybe they are hypocrites and it is time for new friends.

but honestly, it is never charitable to make jokes that degrade people

 

[mrajax]

Of course you are being insulting. Would you say it to/about Jews? Obviously not. You wouldn’t feel so bad about it, if it weren’t so offensive Must have a conscience somewhere but I thought atheists didnt have consciences or guilt feelings. LOL.

It seems that you are crassly ignorant of Islam and its teachings - one of the great religions of the world. Nice when people are mature enough to respect others’ beliefs and their way of life. I thought that’s what USA was all about. This is going for cheap laughs - an ancient antisemite ‘jibe’. Try ‘free beer’ the next time.

How about seriously learning something about this religion before mocking it. What if I said, atheists are probably the dumbest creatures on this planet (for what it’s worth). They dont even know if there is a God and then dont know what to do about it.
Seems like you made an honest mistake & now regret it. So God ( whom you dont believe in) will forgive you.

Wow, aren’t you taking it all angry and what not. I am not crassly ignorant of Islam, if I were I would be doing much, MUCH worse than saying a little joke about bacon. Must have a conscience? We all do. But unlike many Christians it seems you lack humility. And I’ve pulled the Jewish version other times too; why do the Jews have immunity to bacon jokes lol?

 

[EasterJoy]

Wow, aren’t you taking it all angry and what not. I am not crassly ignorant of Islam, if I were I would be doing much, MUCH worse than saying a little joke about bacon. Must have a conscience? We all do. But unlike many Christians it seems you lack humility. And I’ve pulled the Jewish version other times too; why do the Jews have immunity to bacon jokes lol?

I see from your first post that your friends tell offensive jokes about Catholics, and think they are funny, but jump on you for jokes about other religions. The thing you are missing is that Catholics and other Christians seem to be the only “legitimate” targets of offensive religious jokes.

IOW: It isn’t that your jokes ought to be OK. It is that your friends tell their jokes that are not OK, but somehow give themselves a pass when it comes to assaulting the Church.

This may be partly to do with Christianity’s place as the “majority” religion. The powerful have always been considered legitimate targets of satire by the weak. I think it has more to do with the unfortunate fact that if ex-Catholics were a separate denomination, they’d be the second-largest Christian denomination, right behind Catholics. That makes us a big target with a big appreciative audience that gives themselves a pass when it comes to their offensive attacks, because the attacks are how they express the anger or contempt that lead them to leave in the first place. They consider the Church “the strong” and themselves “the weak,” and so they let fly all sorts of awful and unfair things–such as the stereotype that priests are pedophiles because they are celibate when in fact pedophiles are far more likely to be married than to be priests–and congratulate themselves for how clever they are.

If an otherwise sensitive person does this, let them know that it does not become them. If an insensitive person does it, don’t throw your pearls before swine. They’ll just turn on you and rip you to pieces.

 

[mrajax]

I see from your first post that your friends tell offensive jokes about Catholics, and think they are funny, but jump on you for jokes about other religions. The thing you are missing is that Catholics and other Christians seem to be the only “legitimate” targets of offensive religious jokes.

IOW: It isn’t that your jokes ought to be OK. It is that your friends tell their jokes that are not OK, but somehow give themselves a pass when it comes to assaulting the Church.

This may be partly to do with Christianity’s place as the “majority” religion. The powerful have always been considered legitimate targets of satire by the weak. I think it has more to do with the unfortunate fact that if ex-Catholics were a separate denomination, they’d be the second-largest Christian denomination, right behind Catholics. That makes us a big target with a big appreciative audience that gives themselves a pass when it comes to their offensive attacks, because the attacks are how they express the anger or contempt that lead them to leave in the first place. They consider the Church “the strong” and themselves “the weak,” and so they let fly all sorts of awful and unfair things–such as the stereotype that priests are pedophiles because they are celibate when in fact pedophiles are far more likely to be married than to be priests–and congratulate themselves for how clever they are.

If an otherwise sensitive person does this, let them know that it does not become them. If an insensitive person does it, don’t throw your pearls before swine. They’ll just turn on you and rip you to pieces.

See, pedophilia jokes, especially ones having to do with the sex abuse scandal are not funny. People who capitalize on jokes about that subject don’t care for the victims, it is insulting to them and they are not deep. Thankfully none of my friends ever pulled off such a joke, not even the relaly immature, militant atheist 16 year olds among them.

What you said is so true. I’ve become tired of one of some of them constantly posting all that anti-religious stuff, I even unfollowed them. The only reason I don’t unfriend them (note I’m tlaking about 1 or two friends, not the whole lot) is because I do constantly see them at my dojo and even when attempting a chat they end up always trying to initiate a religious debate which I always decline. they don’t stop even if they know how it bothers me.

 

[Xantippe]

See, pedophilia jokes, especially ones having to do with the sex abuse scandal are not funny. People who capitalize on jokes about that subject don’t care for the victims, it is insulting to them and they are not deep. Thankfully none of my friends ever pulled off such a joke, not even the relaly immature, militant atheist 16 year olds among them.

What you said is so true. I’ve become tired of one of some of them constantly posting all that anti-religious stuff, I even unfollowed them. The only reason I don’t unfriend them (note I’m tlaking about 1 or two friends, not the whole lot) is because I do constantly see them at my dojo and even when attempting a chat they end up always trying to initiate a religious debate which I always decline. they don’t stop even if they know how it bothers me.

That’s weird, obsessive behavior on their part.

I think you may need to define “friend” a little less generously than you are currently doing.

 

[BabyBumblebee]

They’ve got a better sense of their audience than you do–that’s all.

A joke needs to be just a little edgy for the audience, but not too far. It’s tricky figuring out where that zone is located, and it doesn’t sound like you’ve got the knack.

Guys, can we take all this stereotype stuff out and consider the text of the joke itself? I wasn’t even aware of the Muslims being cheap stereotype, honestly.

If people really are going to be be so offended at my jokes it really is best to avoid making them in front of people who are offended. Honestly, it’s always like this; I make a horrid joke, everyone blows up, others make worse ones than me everyone laughs. It’s mind-boggling why everything I do turns out to be wrong.

There’s a book that some of my friends found to be helpful for a wide range of reasons that social awareness wasn’t a strong point. It’s factual, gives no guilt or excuses, and just explains stuff like this in a straightforward way. It talks about humor and sensitivity, for example covering how and why most people like someone who can laugh at himself, but understanding the difference between that and you being the joke. That you’re Catholic is a component of why you can’t complain about Catholic jokes to them and why they can complain about Muslim jokes to you. While you don’t see a difference in the two jokes or their complaints, they do see a difference in you being Catholic and the offended party and being the one to complain. There’s a lot of nuance like that that goes into what people find funny and acceptable. And also into relationships and power dynamics, at an individual level and an institutional and cultural one.

Anyway, the author wrote to a defined niche because it’s what she knew and knew could sell, but any person who doesn’t understand the unwritten social code could see themselves in the same scenarios. My friends found it helpful for anxiety, gifted and talented/high IQ, introverted and not very introspective people, Autism-spectrum, and others. Maybe you’d like it, too? You can read some excerpts at the link and see if it makes sense to you.

The Asperkid’s (Secret) Book of Social Rules: The Handbook of Not-so-obvious Social Guidelines for Tweens and Teens With Asperger Syndrome

What I really like about it is that you can choose to use or not use this information. It’s a blessing to know yourself and to be so sure of your place in God’s creation that you can see truth for what it is, and can see when it is distorted or marred. You don’t have to change this to reach salvation. You can understand why others are different, and you can choose to use that knowledge when it is helpful, and you can rest assured in yourself the rest of the time without fretting about the craziness in the world and whether you’ve done something you need to change. That’s where I see this information as being most helpful.

 

[underacloud]

I just felt that my friends fretted over this unnecessarilly when other friends post downright mean spirited content. feel the same way, if you were to tell a Muslim a joke like that in general they wouldn’t take offense unless they were extremely sensitive and fanatical or unable to laugh at themselves as flawed people. I wasn’t ridiculing individual Muslims, just making fun of the fact that yes, bacon is loved by EVERYONE. It was notihng to fret over.

The problem is that you don’t know whether a particular religious (or racial, etc) joke will be considered either offensive or benign to the audience, yet you’re prepared to lay the blame on them (as being “fanatical”) if they take offense. And then your underlying prejudice is further confirmed by their unreasonable reaction.

Don’t tell these sorts of jokes.

 

[MarkInOregon]

My rule is to not tell or listen to ethnic or religious jokes. If I hear someone start one I always interrupt and tell them I’m not interested in hearing it. To use your example, would you feel offended if someone made a similar joke about a Catholic’s dilemma about free bacon on Friday during Lent? It’s not so funny when the shoe is on the other foot. Do unto others…

Why should we be offended by a joke like that? In my mind bacon is simply wonderful and free bacon on Friday just makes it more of a sacrifice–and the joke essentially points that out. For us its a few Fridays during lent and for Muslims its for life. In my opinion it’s not really making fun of our religion or sacrilegious–and I think you need to be overly sensitive to see it as such. I’d laugh and say your right that would be quite the temptation but I am happy to make it. Maybe some people think it funny that we engage in such practices–but I’d say its no more funny than the sacrifices people make for all kinds of things. Depending on the person telling the joke–it could be an occasion for a good chuckle and a little friendly seed planting regarding small acts of penance. When we are offended over such small things–it makes our taking offense at truly sacrilegious jabs and religious attacks all that much easier to dismiss. The joke, as you modified it, isn’t an attack on Christ or the Church–if we are truly taking offense at it perhaps it because not eating meat on Friday is, for most, such a small act of penance that we feel guilty for not doing more and feel that we are being made fun of for such a small act?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Xantippe]

Why should we be offended by a joke like that? In my mind bacon is simply wonderful and free bacon on Friday just makes it more of a sacrifice–and the joke essentially points that out. For us its a few Fridays during lent and for Muslims its for life. In my opinion it’s not really making fun of our religion or sacrilegious–and I think you need to be overly sensitive to see it as such. I’d laugh and say your right that would be quite the temptation but I am happy to make it. Maybe some people think it funny that we engage in such practices–but I’d say its no more funny than the sacrifices people make for all kinds of things. Depending on the person telling the joke–it could be an occasion for a good chuckle and a little friendly seed planting regarding small acts of penance. When we are offended over such small things–it makes our taking offense at truly sacrilegious jabs and religious attacks all that much easier to dismiss. The joke, as you modified it, isn’t an attack on Christ or the Church–if we are truly taking offense at it perhaps it because not eating meat on Friday is, for most, such a small act of penance that we feel guilty for not doing more and feel that we are being made fun of for such a small act?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

As someone mentioned upthread, the usual etiquette on this is that you tell jokes about your group.

 

[MarkInOregon]

There are two ways it can be taken as offensive, primarily because of the word “biggest”.

The first is that it could be taken to imply that if a Muslim can only observe exterior ritual laws, such as the rules of halal, then that’s the only morality a Muslim gets very cranked up about.

The second is that the rules of halal themselves are something to be made light of or that Muslims are so enslaved to the attraction of getting something for nothing that they don’t care what it is until they take it and have no use for it.

It would be like saying the biggest moral dilemma of a Catholic would be the really great free doughnuts that always seem to be available in a situation where we would have to break the Eucharistic fast to eat them. Sure, a Catholic could find that funny, and might even tell a joke like that. Others might not be amused. Are you saying that the Eucharistic fast is funny or pointless, or are you saying that we care about that kind of thing but the rest of our moral life doesn’t worry us too much? That it kills us to pass up free anything, because we’re so cheap? Said by someone from an ethnic group that has historically had truly serious problems with an ethnic group that 110% Catholic, the joke would be taken differently than if a fellow Catholic had said it, too.

I think you’d be wise to not make up jokes about other religions. Let them make fun of us in your jokes. Self-deprecating humor is far more attractive in those who’d like a reputation for humility.

For instance, there was a joke about the ministers of three religions, all of whom complained to their fellow in their town that he had bats in the attic of his congregation’s house of worship that were causing all sorts of damage. The first two had tried traditional cures, to no avail. The priest says that he had gotten rid of his. How? the other two asked. Oh, easy. He’d had his bishop come and confirm them, and he never saw them after that. You see, a Catholic can get away with telling a wry joke like that about us, but not a non-Catholic. (Our archbishop told it to our confirmandi, and said he’d rather It have no ring of truth in it where they are concerned.)

I usually think your comments are for the most part-- to use a phrase I hate – spot on, but in this case I think you are reaching. What the joke implies is that bacon is really good and not being able to eat it because of our beliefs is a challenge and a struggle. It says nothing and implies nothing regarding those beliefs–and one has to go out of their way looking for offence to make it imply what you claim it may. I think it is a real reach in both the bacon joke and your doughnut example – to get to the idea that someone is making a comment about us or anyone being cheap and finding it impossible to pass up something free. To me that idea comes out of left field. If I like something like bacon and it is expensive and someone offers it to me for free–well its harder to pass up–that is the point–not that I am cheap. If I am not supposed to have something for whatever reason–it is easier not to have it if it is out of my price range–and in that case I am not sure what kind of sacrifice I am truly making. On the other hand if it suddenly is sitting there for free–well the sacrifice becomes real and I face a dilemma–live up to my belief or fall short. The word biggest says more about the worth of bacon in the tellers mind than it does anything about the practice of ones faith or the worth of those beliefs. I guess I could interpret as making light of my practice by but putting it up against eating bacon but I see it as more of a joke about societies current obsession with bacon–I mean bacon is in everything–I mean does a bacon flavored vodka really sound good to anyone? And as an aside–given the rise in the price of bacon these days–if anyone out there is giving away free bacon–sign me up.

The joke about confirmation would be both humorous and sad no matter who told it and for the same reason–the grain of truth that it holds and if we can’t acknowledge that regardless of the teller–we are the poorer for it. That joke is not an attack on our faith or our beliefs–its pointing out a truth using a little humor and hopefully the slight sting it contains moves us to action. Lets save our outrage for the true attacks on our faith and for the sacrilegious.

I will agree–given peoples propensity to be offended at the drop of a hat these days–that it is best to avoid jokes about religion and to be self-deprecating. The self deprecation worked for Bob Newhart–it should work for us.

The Peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

As someone mentioned upthread, the usual etiquette on this is that you tell jokes about your group.

I don’t disagree that that is the wisest course of action but the post I responded to implied that we would be offended if the joke was modified to be about us, bacon and Fridays during Lent–I was asking why I should be offended by that–as I don’t find it to be a particular attack on me or my faith or something to offended over. It would have given me a chuckle and I would have seen it as a poke at societies obsession with bacon as opposed to a jab at my practice of not eating meat on Fridays during Lent. I was not commenting on the best course of action when it comes to telling jokes. I tend to think the best course of action is to direct the joke at yourself. but that is a different discussion from what we should find offensive. I think we too often go out of our way looking for and finding slights where none exist–and that makes us less credible when we are actually attacked.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[mrajax]

Well, it’s settled then: no more such and such jokes on facebook. Either way I apologized even if I don’t think I did anything wrong and even if none of my Muslim friends said ANYTHING.

 

[BabyBumblebee]

Well, it’s settled then: no more such and such jokes on facebook. Either way I apologized even if I don’t think I did anything wrong and even if none of my Muslim friends said ANYTHING.

That was a humble and wise choice.