Am I still forgiven if I do not do my penance?

[TheDoctor]

Thistle, Brooklyn: Please, it is TheDoctor (all one word), not The Doctor (with a space). I know it might seem petty but there is another user called The Doctor (of course, he is not TheDoctor, but The Doctor) and I don’t want us to get mixed up on the thread.

 

[marlo]

There are many instances/examples that a confession is invalid, even though the priest has said the words of Absolution, Example: A priest cannot absolve his partner when both of them commits the sin of adultery or after they had sex

If one intentionally did not perform the penance, except the act of forgetting to do it, invalidates the absolution, this is in the Canon Law

Can. 981** The confessor is to impose salutary and appropriate penances, in proportion to the kind and number of sins confessed**, taking into account, however, the condition of the penitent. The penitent is bound personally to fulfill these penances.

 

[TheDoctor]

There are many instances/examples that a confession is invalid, even though the priest has said the words of Absolution, Example: A priest cannot absolve his partner when both of them commits the sin of adultery or after they had sex

If one intentionally did not perform the penance, except the act of forgetting to do it, invalidates the absolution, this is in the Canon Law

Can. 981** The confessor is to impose salutary and appropriate penances, in proportion to the kind and number of sins confessed**, taking into account, however, the condition of the penitent. The penitent is bound personally to fulfill these penances.

Yes, the penitent is bound to fulfuill these penances under penalty of mortal sin, but not doing the penance you, in good faith, accepted and intended to do, does not invalidate absolution.

If you are just joining the thread and have not read all the posts, please go back to my posts and read the links from Fr. Z and the CA Apologists. These confirm absolution is not conditional upon doing the assigned penance.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I think this discussion heading towards agreement on the major issues.

I found this post from 2010. Most of it is similar to what we have already agreed on, but I am just posting it as confirmation from a moral theologian that one does have the option of asking another confessor to commute an imposed penance.

The following quotation is taken from Prummer, Dominic M., OP (1955) “Handbook of Moral Theology” reprinted by Roman Catholic Books:

The penitent is bound not only to accept, but also to fulfil any reasonable penance imposed by his confessor.

The penitent is so obliged, seeing that the penance is an integral part of the sacrament of Penance. Therefore anyone who wishes to receive the sacrament must complete its integral parts. This obligation is considered to be grave when the penitent confesses mortal sins not previously remitted or a grave penance is imposed. The penitent is bound to accept and fulfil a reasonable penance, for if the confessor imposes an unreasonable penance the penitent is not bound to accept it or he could seek commutation of the penance from another confessor.

Of course, that option would only exercised very rarely, and there is no guarentee that the second confessor will comply with the request.

 

[thistle]

Thistle, Brooklyn: Please, it is TheDoctor (all one word), not The Doctor (with a space). I know it might seem petty but there is another user called The Doctor (of course, he is not TheDoctor, but The Doctor) and I don’t want us to get mixed up on the thread.

 

[marlo]

Remember, God is the one who forgives Sin, not the priest, God knows if the penitent will perform the act of penance or not before he go to confession, therefore, if the penitent refuses to perform his penance, God knows what in his heart, if he refuses for the sake of refusing as the OP did, therefore his confession will be invalid.

Theoretically, all sins confessed can be forgiven, but there are cases, as i stated that even the priest has completed the words of absolution, but did not abide by the Canon Law conditions, it will be invalid, such as refusing to perform a simple penance.

Yes, the penitent is bound to fulfuill these penances under penalty of mortal sin, but not doing the penance you, in good faith, accepted and intended to do, does not invalidate absolution.

If you are just joining the thread and have not read all the posts, please go back to my posts and read the links from Fr. Z and the CA Apologists. These confirm absolution is not conditional upon doing the assigned penance.

 

[thistle]

Remember, God is the one who forgives Sin, not the priest, God knows if the penitent will perform the act of penance or not before he go to confession, therefore, if the penitent refuses to perform his penance, God knows what in his heart, if he refuses for the sake of refusing as the OP did, therefore his confession will be invalid.

Theoretically, all sins confessed can be forgiven, but there are cases, as i stated that even the priest has completed the words of absolution, but did not abide by the Canon Law conditions,** it will be invalid, such as refusing to perform a simple penance**.

For a Confession to be valid:

• it requires the priest to consider the penitent genuinely repentant
• it requires the penitent to be genuinely sorry, to confess all remembered mortal sins, and to intend to perform the penance given
• it requires the priest to say the correct words of absolution

After the above is achieved nothing can subsequently invalidate the Confession/Absolution even if later on the penitent decides not to perform the penance. As long as the penitent genuinely intended to do the penance and absolution is given any subsequent refusal to the penance has no impact on that Confession. Depending on the circumstances of the penance not being done it may or may not be a sin that requires Confession as soon as possible.

For a Confession to be invalid:

• the priest considers the penitent not to be really sorry
• the intention of the penitent (either silently [but known to God] or openly to the priest) not to perform the penance given
• the penitent deliberately does not confess mortal sins
• the priest makes a mess of the absolution by getting the words all wrong

 

[marlo]

I disagree that the Penance has nothing to do with the confession, The Confession should be made under the Rules of the Church. Canon Law states that the Penitent is obliged to follow the penance made to him by the priest or else the penance will be rendered useless by your standard. Under the general rule that a Penance does not affect the absolution only if the penitent has forgotten or was not able to perform due to some unforeseen situation, but if the Penitent REFUSES by his own will, in his case praying for about 15 minutes, then the confession will be rendered invalid as God already knows this situation before he confesses and therefore the penitent does not TRULY made a perfect confession in the first place. The penitent is not genuinely sorry after all.

For a Confession to be valid:

• it requires the priest to consider the penitent genuinely repentant
• it requires the penitent to be genuinely sorry, to confess all remembered mortal sins, and to intend to perform the penance given
• it requires the priest to say the correct words of absolution

After the above is achieved nothing can subsequently invalidate the Confession/Absolution even if later on the penitent decides not to perform the penance. As long as the penitent genuinely intended to do the penance and absolution is given any subsequent refusal to the penance has no impact on that Confession. Depending on the circumstances of the penance not being done it may or may not be a sin that requires Confession as soon as possible.

For a Confession to be invalid:

• the priest considers the penitent not to be really sorry
• the intention of the penitent (either silently [but known to God] or openly to the priest) not to perform the penance given
• the penitent deliberately does not confess mortal sins
• the priest makes a mess of the absolution by getting the words all wrong

 

[thistle]

I disagree that the Penance has nothing to do with the confession, The Confession should be made under the Rules of the Church. Canon Law states that the Penitent is obliged to follow the penance made to him by the priest or else the penance will be rendered useless by your standard. Under the general rule that a Penance does not affect the absolution only if the penitent has forgotten or was not able to perform due to some unforeseen situation, but if the Penitent REFUSES by his own will, in his case praying for about 15 minutes, then the confession will be rendered invalid as God already knows this situation before he confesses and therefore the penitent does not TRULY made a perfect confession in the first place. The penitent is not genuinely sorry after all.

That is not correct. A penitent could clearly intend to perform a penance and receive absolution and later on for whatever reason might refuse to do it. That does not negate his intention during Confession or invalidate his Confession. To say a penitent later on refusing to do a penance means they were not intending to do it from the start is nonsense and the Church does not say that.

 

[TheDoctor]

It seems we are all closer to agreement here than we may think. The crux of the matter is the penitent’s intent, not what is done.

The question on the table is really two fold:

1. Is absolution valid if, when my penance is given me by the Priest, I fully intend to do it but don’t (the analogy may be drawn to “Is absolution valid if, when I confess my sins to the Priest, I fully intend not to do them again but do”).
2. Is the absolution valid if, when my penance is given me by the Priest, I have no intention of doing it (the analogy may be drawn to "Is absolution valid if, when I confess my sins to the Priest, I fully intend to do them again).

In both instances of (1), the intent is there to do as the Church says we must, therefore even if we fall and sin again or don’t complete the penance, absolution is valid. We all agree that willfully not doing the penance you agreed to do is a sin, just as willfully sinning is, however sinning after confession is a separate sin, it does not invalidate the absolution already given.

In both instances of (2), the intent is there not to do as the Church says we must, therefore absolution is invalid.

 

[marlo]

Disagree again, The Penitent might be or able to perform the penance even after the words of Absolution is said but If this is not under the Rules of the Church this is invalid, As i said, the priest having adulterous relationship with his partner cannot perform absolution even though they perform the act of confession and penance, This is Canon Law, This is why in the early church, a penance is required on the Penitent before the act of confession because this is part of the sacrament, and a penitent is bound to perform these simple act. Look at the situation of the OP, REFUSING to pray, a very simple act.

That is not correct. A penitent could clearly intend to perform a penance and receive absolution and later on for whatever reason might refuse to do it. That does not negate his intention during Confession or invalidate his Confession. To say a penitent later on refusing to do a penance means they were not intending to do it from the start is nonsense and the Church does not say that.

 

[thistle]

Disagree again, The Penitent might be or able to perform the penance even after the words of Absolution is said but If this is not under the Rules of the Church this is invalid, As i said, the priest having adulterous relationship with his partner cannot perform absolution even though they perform the act of confession and penance, This is Canon Law, This is why in the early church, a penance is required on the Penitent before the act of confession because this is part of the sacrament, and a penitent is bound to perform these simple act. Look at the situation of the OP, REFUSING to pray, a very simple act.

What you have said is totally irrelevant. We are discussing normal situations like you and I going to Confession and I can’t remember having a sexual relationship with my priest!!

Lets start that again.

A Confession and absolution is valid when:

• the priest has the faculty to hear Confession
• the priest is not having a relationship with the penitent
• the priest considers the penitent to be sincerely sorry for having sinned
• the penitent confesses all remembered mortal sins and fully intends to perform the penance given
• the priest uses the correct words of absolution

Nothing that happens subsequently in any way negates or invalidates that Confession or absolution.
If the penitent later on (for some reason not known to priest or penitent at Confession) refuses to perform the penance given then depending on the circumstances for the refusal that may or may not be a sin of grave matter but should be confessed at Confession as soon as possible to get advice from the priest. It does not affect the previous Confession.

Since my last post I spoke to two priests and they agree with what I said.

 

[Brooklyn]

Yes, the penitent is bound to fulfuill these penances under penalty of mortal sin, but not doing the penance you, in good faith, accepted and intended to do, does not invalidate absolution.

If you are just joining the thread and have not read all the posts, please go back to my posts and read the links from Fr. Z and the CA Apologists. These confirm absolution is not conditional upon doing the assigned penance.

I understand what you are saying, and I can accept it. But what do we do with what Cardinal Wuerl says - that refusing to do penance invalides the confession?

I still think that even if we put all our differences aside, the OP and others in his situation should be warned that if they obstinately refuse to do the penance they have been given, they have incurred serious sin and should not receive the sacraments until this sin is confessed and absolved and also realize that they are not in a state of grace and in danger of losing their salvation if this sin is not absolved. And then when the sin is confessed, PLEASE do the penance or if you have a problem with it, discuss it with the priest before leaving the confessional.

 

[TheDoctor]

I understand what you are saying, and I can accept it. But what do we do with what Cardinal Wuerl says - that refusing to do penance invalides the confession?

Brooklyn, I think where we are stuck here is that we are both reading what the Cardinal says but interpreting it differently. I think what the Cardinal says is that if, when you get your penance you have no intention to do it, then you don’t have a firm purpose of amendment and absolution is valid. This is where I tried to take my analogy to firm purpose not to sin form.

If you listen to this podcast from July 16th, Father Morris, between the 40-45 minute mark, confirms that you cannot attach any conditions (e.g. doing a penance) to absolution: catholic.com/radio/shows/i-absolve-you-confession-to-a-priest-7276

I still think that even if we put all our differences aside, the OP and others in his situation should be warned that if they obstinately refuse to do the penance they have been given, they have incurred serious sin and should not receive the sacraments until this sin is confessed and absolved and also realize that they are not in a state of grace and in danger of losing their salvation if this sin is not absolved. And then when the sin is confessed, PLEASE do the penance or if you have a problem with it, discuss it with the priest before leaving the confessional.

“Obstinately refuse” - there is the phrase this discussion turns on I think.

And for the record, the best and hardest penance I ever got was to go out and do a random act of kindness for someone with nothing in return. When we think of how badly we have sinned against a God who loves us so much He would, and did, die for us, any penance given seems to pale in comparison.

 

[Brooklyn]

Brooklyn, I think where we are stuck here is that we are both reading what the Cardinal says but interpreting it differently. I think what the Cardinal says is that if, when you get your penance you have no intention to do it, then you don’t have a firm purpose of amendment and absolution is valid. This is where I tried to take my analogy to firm purpose not to sin form.

If you listen to this podcast from July 16th, Father Morris, between the 40-45 minute mark, confirms that you cannot attach any conditions (e.g. doing a penance) to absolution: catholic.com/radio/shows/i-absolve-you-confession-to-a-priest-7276

“Obstinately refuse” - there is the phrase this discussion turns on I think.

And for the record, the best and hardest penance I ever got was to go out and do a random act of kindness for someone with nothing in return. When we think of how badly we have sinned against a God who loves us so much He would, and did, die for us, any penance given seems to pale in comparison.

Ok, I guess I can accept that. If a person goes into the confessional with all intention of performing the penance given, than when the absolution is given, it is valid. But if the person, once outside the confessional, willfully decides not to do the penance, then he or she has incurred a serious sin which must be confessed before receiving any sacraments. The confession and absolution are invalid only if the person goes in with no intention of doing the penance.

I completely agree, any penance compared to the great Sacrifice of our Lord most definitely pales in comparison. In the early Church, people were forced to do public penances, and sometimes it would take months or years to complete them. We have it pretty easy now.

This thread has turned out to be enlightening to me after all. Thank you.

 

[IanGE]

For my very first confession, our school class of 7-year-olds were given a check list by the Principal: “Did you steal, did you tell lies, did you commit adultery…?” We whispered together, “what’s adultery?” “Dunno, but maybe we should confess it just in case.” As we queued up for our first confession I went through in my head and couldn’t think of any sins I had committed. Even as I knelt before our Parish priest I didn’t know what to say, so I made up a sin. "Bless me Father for I have sinned. I stole eight annas (this was in India) from my mother’s handbag. Father Longhi said, “I cannot give you absolution until you put that money back in your mother’s handbag”
Now what do I do? I didn’t steal anything in the first place. Have I lied? Have I made a “BAD confession”? It troubled me until I married Anne when we were both in our sixties. Anne laughed when I told her: “what nonsense. What sins CAN a seven-year-old commit? We ALL made up sins to confess when we were children!”
Brings to mind waiting in a long confession queue when I was about 13. A convent girl around my age was at the confessional when the priest suddenly roared: “YOU DID WHAT?” The queue instantly dissolved as EVERYONE ran away!