Amazon conference

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Articles about the Amazon synod use the phrases “married priests,” and “heretical,” as if the notion of married priests is itself heretical.
For example, this article from the AP

www.yahoo.com

Vatican defends married priest proposal on Amazon agenda

Organizers of a Vatican meeting on the Amazon defended plans to introduce debate on married priests, saying Thursday the proposal represents the “the voice of the local church” and isn’t an official proposal of the pope. Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri acknowledged the Oct. 6-27 synod on the Amazon...
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Organizers of a Vatican meeting on the Amazon defended plans to introduce debate on married priests, saying Thursday the proposal represents the “the voice of the local church” and isn’t an official proposal of the pope.

Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri acknowledged the Oct. 6-27 synod on the Amazon has generated criticism, including from cardinals who have accused organizers of making “heretical” proposals in the working document.

But a married priesthood isn’t heretical. This confuses me. What aspects of the synod are legitimately allegedly heretical?
 
There is a long thread on this already:
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Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider ask for prayer and fasting Spirituality
The National Catholic Register newspaper recently posted that Cardinal Raymond Burke and Bishop Schneider are warning about six “serious theological errors and heresies” in the Amazonian Synod working document, and calling for prayer and fasting to prevent them being approved. They suggest we pray a decade of the rosary daily and fast once a week from Sept. 17 to Oct. 26. Anne
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The AP report attributes the “heretical” accusation to unnamed cardinals. Also, it doesn’t specify that the alleged “heresy” has to do with the married priests question. It might be something else, such as the recommended non-confrontational approach to indigenous pagan religions.
 
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I’m certainly not going to fast about this synod.

The headlong rush to indigenize the Church is very disturbing to me, whether married men get ordained or not.

For five-hundred years, members of all cultures have entered the Church, and some become Saints, without the Holy Church jumping through hoops to try to accommodate their cultures. Why try to fix what isn’t broken??

ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie said:
For five-hundred years, members of all cultures have entered the Church, and some become Saints, without the Holy Church jumping through hoops to try to accommodate their cultures.
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My understanding of history is not yours. Some may have becomes saints, precious few in the Americas during the early “evangelizaiton”, but a great deal more harm was accomplished by Europeanization being part of evangelization. Inculturation is ancient and traditional, since the time of St. Paul.

This synod is taking place because the Church sees that something needs fixing. Unless one is as intimately familiar with the issues as those priests and bishops, I would say their opinion is more informed.
 
pnewton said:
There is a long thread on this already:
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Yes. My comment was specifically about how the terms “married priests” and “heretical” always appear together without mention of what the actual heretical notions might be.

I made a new post because I didn’t want it to get lost in the tangle of the other(s).
 
About the married priests debate, there are some signs now that married priests in the Amazon may not be the slam dunk that the Germans and others think it will be:

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2019/10...-skeptical-on-married-priests-for-the-amazon/

My guess is that though there are some people coming out against this proposal, the majority of attendees will still be in favor of it, so it will be up to the Pope to shoot it down in his post synod document. Cardinal Ouellet seems to strongly hint that the Pope is against introducing married priests, but I don’t think anything is certain as far as Pope Francis is concerned.

If the Pope does feel like celibacy can be made optional, he had better think long and hard about it. Doing away with centuries and centuries of tradition due to the whims of a tiny minority of bishops of the Church at a regional synod held over the course of a few weeks would be a questionable decision at the very least, if not downright reckless. And yes, I am aware that the synod is discussing only married priests in the Amazon specifically, but if anyone believes that this practice would stay confined to the Amazon, then I have a bridge to sell you.
 
I suspect that some German bishops are hoping that whatever new accomodations that are approved in the Amazon can then be imported to Germany and thence to the whole Church.
 
I find this topic very interesting. I would oppose instituting a married priesthood in the latin rite, but also do not feel if done so it would constitute heresy. I have much respect for Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Sarah (not familiar with Schneider). I also respect Pope Francis, though he has frustrated me at times (which I find is not always necessarily a bad thing).

I have not reviewed the entire working document of the Synod but would assume there must be some things beyond the celibacy question that bring up the question of heresy. I have seen references to possible pantheism in the previous thread.

I appreciate the discussion and have found it enlightening.

Thanks
 
I am totally unconcerned about this topic. I have no idea the challenges they face in the Amazon, and celibacy is a discipline. There is no talk of anything at this synod except a limited role to this discipline. Sure it might spread, or may not. But then, it might need to spread, or might not. The next generation and future popes will handle the front. Sufficient to the day is our own challenges.
 
The Catholic hierarchy in Brazil apparently still sees the married priests question as the main focus of the Amazon Synod, opening this Sunday in Rome, to judge from the latest issue of Revista Eclesiástica Brasileira (Brazilian Ecclesiastical Review), a periodical read mainly by priests. Two long articles, one by a German professor of Church history and the other by a prominent Brazilian theologian identified with Liberation Theology, both address the “viri probati” debate.

In his thirteen-page article, Hubert Wolf of Münster University in Germany argues that, in the history of the Catholic Church, the connection between celibacy and priesthood has never been absolute and that the proposed ordination of married men would not constitute a break with Church Tradition. Priestly celibacy is neither a divine precept, nor one of Christ’s commandments, he says, but merely the result of a continuous cost-benefit evaluation. Looking at the present-day Catholic Church from the cost-benefit angle, the drastic shortage of priests as well as the sexual abuse scandals demand that the Church must now take a position in favor of the ordination of married men. Wolf believes that this would help to avert what he calls the risks arising from the celibate life, and would also lead to an increased number of priests.

In a longer (twenty-page) article, José Oscar Beozzo seeks to explain why the documents related to a proposal for the priestly ordination of married men (viri probati) were not included in the Acta Synodalia of Vatican II. It has now become possible to answer this question, he says, because the relevant Council documents have been made available to researchers. At the time, the proposal became public knowledge and triggered a strong reaction. Recent research has brought to light the arguments put forward in the 1960s for and against the ordination of married men, which Beozzo attempts to reassess in terms of the present-day Catholic Church.

http://revistaeclesiasticabrasileira.itf.edu.br/reb/issue/view/126
 
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A Piranha is in the waters ----- just hope there isn’t a school of them.
 
on_the_hill said:
For example, this article from the AP
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Like others have pointed out AP is never credible when reporting about catholic issues.

Also, catholic media has reported no change in celibacy discipline is expected to come from this synod anytime soon. That’s all speculation. They’ll merely debate perspectives on the subject of celibacy in the context of the Amazon - it’ll be mostly a theoretical exercise.
 
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I think it would be tragic if they changed the celibacy discipline. Yes I know the priest shortage issues, and that priests early on were married, and that some in Eastern rites are married. But I also know and side with this:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate “for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.” Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to “the affairs of the Lord,” they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church’s minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.

There are footnotes in this passage pointing to scriptural support from both Matthew and Paul.
 
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Fr Dwight Longenecker comments on his concerns with the Amazon synod , which go beyond the celibacy debate. I actually don’t think he even mentions celibacy in this article: Pentecostalism and the Amazon Synod | Fr. Dwight Longenecker
My summary [of the Amazon Synod working document] would be, “What a load of silly nonsense!” By placing the whole emphasis on cultural adaptation, ecological disaster and accompanying indigenous people it does a disservice not only to the core of the Christian gospel, but also to the other subsidiary causes it is trying to promote. Being good stewards of natural resources is a good thing. Learning from and adapting to the people we are evangelizing is a good thing, however these good things find their true value and purpose and power when they are in proper relationship with the truth of the gospel. If you promote them at the expense of the core gospel they become nothing more than politically correct talking points.
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He goes on to argue that Evangelical (Protestant) Pentecostalism is sweeping the Amazon region like wildfire, and that people are turning to that because they are hungry for God and the saving gospel of Christ which he says the Catholic leaders there are watering down in favor of a mishmash of liberation theology and universalism. (Better to read the article in Father L’s own words, however. Food for thought.)
 
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clclnn said:
There is no reason to change anything about celibacy. Attempts have been made in the past.
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How do you know there’s no reason until after it has been discussed at a synod? That there hadn’t been a reason in the past doesn’t mean there isn’t a reason in the present.

Personally, I don’t care one way or another. I do think that in culturally conservative states like mine, married priests would face a TON of criticism, discrimination, and prejudice from parishioners.
 
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We can put that bridge and my beach condo in New Mexico (right on the water!) on the market together.

ICXC NIKA
 
If almost a generation after St. JP2 denounced liberation theology, leaders in the Holy Church are still promoting it, then we deserve for the Protestants to drink our milkshake. Not just in Amazonia but everywhere.

ICXC NIKA
 
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