An Abuse?

[Kanda]

Today and last Sunday, something different happened at church, and I don’t quite feel that it is right, but I’d like to know for sure.

During the gospel, the congregation was asked to sit. Then 3 lay people came forward and the priest blessed them. Then he sat down and these three people read the gospel - some men, some women. One was like a narrator, one read Jesus’ part, and one read the part of the lady at the well (last week) and one read the part of the blind man (today).

This week, the priest gave the homily afterward. But last week, the homily was given by the female pastoral associate in conjunction with a female lay person. (I have nothing against women, being one myself. I only mention it in case being a woman in any of these roles has a bearing on the situation.)

I know that only the presider is supposed to deliver the homily. But is what happened for the reading of the Gospel okay?

Thank you for your help.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Today and last Sunday, something different happened at church, and I don’t quite feel that it is right, but I’d like to know for sure.

During the gospel, the congregation was asked to sit. Then 3 lay people came forward and the priest blessed them. Then he sat down and these three people read the gospel - some men, some women. One was like a narrator, one read Jesus’ part, and one read the part of the lady at the well (last week) and one read the part of the blind man (today).

This week, the priest gave the homily afterward. But last week, the homily was given by the female pastoral associate in conjunction with a female lay person. (I have nothing against women, being one myself. I only mention it in case being a woman in any of these roles has a bearing on the situation.)

I know that only the presider is supposed to deliver the homily. But is what happened for the reading of the Gospel okay?

Thank you for your help.

Yes, that is prohibited. It was permitted at one time. Now only the Gospel on Passion Sunday and Good Friday may be read in this manner. In addition we should never sit for the Gospel. Except for those who are unable to stand.

 

[Kanda]

Yes, that is prohibited. It was permitted at one time. Now only the Gospel on Passion Sunday and Good Friday may be read in this manner. In addition we should never sit for the Gospel. Except for those who are unable to stand.

Thank you Br. Rich. Can you please direct me to the documents stating where it is only allowed on Passion Sunday and Good Friday? I have the GIRM bookmarked, so if it is in there and you could at least direct me to the correct sections, I would be very grateful. This happened last year too, and imagine it will continue to happen if it isn’t brought up.

 

[Corki]

It is ok for someone else to give the homily, as long as it is another priest of a deacon.

Sitting for the Gospel is probably a minor abuse. The GIRM says to stand but I know that many parishes tell people to sit, especially for the longer Gospel’s nearing Holy Week.

No one except the priest or deacon should be reading the Gosple. As far as I know, the “role playing” versions are strictly limited to the readings of the passion during Holy Week.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Thank you Br. Rich. Can you please direct me to the documents stating where it is only allowed on Passion Sunday and Good Friday? I have the GIRM bookmarked, so if it is in there and you could at least direct me to the correct sections, I would be very grateful. This happened last year too, and imagine it will continue to happen if it isn’t brought up.

I believe you will find it in the GIRM. We just discussed this on another forum. I do not have an electronic version of the GIRM only a paper version and d not have that at hand right here.

 

[Kanda]

I believe you will find it in the GIRM. We just discussed this on another forum. I do not have an electronic version of the GIRM only a paper version and d not have that at hand right here.

Thanks again. I’m sure I’ll be able to find it. I guess I was just trying to be lazy.

 

[Eileen_T]

General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM 2003) This text is confirmed for use in the Dioceses of the United States of America.
ourladyswarriors.org/index.html

1. By tradition, the function of proclaiming the readings is ministerial, not presidential. The readings, therefore, should be proclaimed by a lector, and the Gospel by a deacon or, in his absence, a priest other than the celebrant. If, however, a deacon or another priest is not present, the priest celebrant himself should read the Gospel. Further, if another suitable lector is also not present, then the priest celebrant should also proclaim the other readings.

After each reading, whoever reads gives the acclamation, to which the gathered people reply, honoring the word of God that they have received in faith and with grateful hearts.

1. The reading of the Gospel is the high point of the Liturgy of the Word. The Liturgy itself teaches that great reverence is to be shown to it by setting it off from the other readings with special marks of honor: whether the minister appointed to proclaim it prepares himself by a blessing or prayer; or the faithful, standing as they listen to it being read, through their acclamations acknowledge and confess Christ present and speaking to them; or the very marks of reverence are given to the Book of the Gospels.

 

[Beno]

Thank you Br. Rich. Can you please direct me to the documents stating where it is only allowed on Passion Sunday and Good Friday? I have the GIRM bookmarked, so if it is in there and you could at least direct me to the correct sections, I would be very grateful. This happened last year too, and imagine it will continue to happen if it isn’t brought up.

With Br. Rich’s approval, perhaps I can submit what you are looking for. The following comes from the 2002 GIRM, Chapter 3, #109:
“If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.”
Hope this helps.

 

[Jennifer123]

Hi-

I was just going to post my experience with this today, but we even had tinkling music during the Gospel reading read by three laypersons!
I was going to ask about Communion. No kneeling during the consecration, though I know that is up to the discretion of the Bishop, but everyone sat down after receiving, the priest sat down after giving the last communion, and stuffed the remainders at the side table, where it sat until after Mass when various laypeople or EM’s then cleaned the cup and vessels still containing Eucharist while we filed by.
Not sure what to think, but it bothered me that it seemed the Eucharist wasn’t being treated reverently?

 

[Journeyman]

At our Parish, the Gospel is rewritten and proclaimed in a dumbed-down version (on occasion) which in now way resembles the NAB version or any real translation. I have to assume that the rubrics say that the Gospel is to be read from the Book of Gospels. Is this in writing anywhere?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

With Br. Rich’s approval, perhaps I can submit what you are looking for. The following comes from the 2002 GIRM, Chapter 3, #109:
“If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.”
Hope this helps.

Thank you

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hi-

I was just going to post my experience with this today, but we even had tinkling music during the Gospel reading read by three laypersons!
I was going to ask about Communion. No kneeling during the consecration, though I know that is up to the discretion of the Bishop, but everyone sat down after receiving, the priest sat down after giving the last communion, and stuffed the remainders at the side table, where it sat until after Mass when various laypeople or EM’s then cleaned the cup and vessels still containing Eucharist while we filed by.
Not sure what to think, but it bothered me that it seemed the Eucharist wasn’t being treated reverently?

Kneeling is required at the Consecration! That is not a Bishops or Pastors option.

Everyone can sit, or kneel after they return from receiving Holy Communion. It’s their option. The remaining Blood of Christ must be consumed by the priest or deacon at the altar immediately after Holy Communion. Hopefully everyone genuflected as they passed by the vessels with the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Kanda]

Kneeling is required at the Consecration! That is not a Bishops or Pastors option.

Everyone can sit, or kneel after they return from receiving Holy Communion. It’s their option. The remaining Blood of Christ must be consumed by the priest or deacon at the altar immediately after Holy Communion. Hopefully everyone genuflected as they passed by the vessels with the Blessed Sacrament.

Is everyone supposed to kneel, or just the priest/deacon? Nobody kneels when it is done where I go.

At the parish I attend, everyone generally remains standing, however sometimes people sit. I will usually sit and pray rather than stand because I am holding my infant and he sure gets heavy!

The EMHC’s take any remaining hosts and Blood of Christ to the back of the church and they finish them. The priest or deacon does not do this where I attend.

Oh, and we had singing during our Gospel reading! The readers paused at several different points and then the choire would sing. I forget what they were singing…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Is everyone supposed to kneel, or just the priest/deacon? Nobody kneels when it is done where I go.

At the parish I attend, everyone generally remains standing, however sometimes people sit. I will usually sit and pray rather than stand because I am holding my infant and he sure gets heavy!

The EMHC’s take any remaining hosts and Blood of Christ to the back of the church and they finish them. The priest or deacon does not do this where I attend.

Oh, and we had singing during our Gospel reading! The readers paused at several different points and then the choire would sing. I forget what they were singing…

At the parish I attend, everyone generally remains standing, however sometimes people sit. I will usually sit and pray rather than stand because I am holding my infant and he sure gets heavy!

Everyone who is able to kneel is required to kneel, except the priests(s) and Deacons(s). That includes the Altar Servers,

The EMHC’s take any remaining hosts and Blood of Christ to the back of the church and they finish them. The priest or deacon does not do this where I attend.

The remaining Blood of Christ in the chalices is to be consumed by the priest, deacon, and if necessary an EMHC at the altar.

The Priest or Deacon is to return the additional Hosts to the Tabernacle, unless they are unable to because of physical limitations.

Oh, and we had singing during our Gospel reading! The readers paused at several different points and then the choire would sing. I forget what they were singing…

The Gospel is not to be broken up in that manner and interspersed with music.

 

[Jennifer123]

Kneeling is required at the Consecration! That is not a Bishops or Pastors option.

Everyone can sit, or kneel after they return from receiving Holy Communion. It’s their option. The remaining Blood of Christ must be consumed by the priest or deacon at the altar immediately after Holy Communion. Hopefully everyone genuflected as they passed by the vessels with the Blessed Sacrament.

Thanks for your response. I have been at other parishes were standing was the “norm” and I thought that was determined diocese-wide by the Bishops. Glad to see I’m mistaken because I prefer kneeling and will continue to do so regardless if that is what the GIRM requires.

This service also had singing interspersed with the Gospel reading. There was no reverential motion given by the parishioners as they filed past the laypeople cleaning the vessels with the Body and Blood present. I was too shocked to really do anything but gape until I caught myself.

 

[Kanda]

At the parish I attend, everyone generally remains standing, however sometimes people sit. I will usually sit and pray rather than stand because I am holding my infant and he sure gets heavy!

Everyone who is able to kneel is required to kneel, except the priests(s) and Deacons(s). That includes the Altar Servers,

The EMHC’s take any remaining hosts and Blood of Christ to the back of the church and they finish them. The priest or deacon does not do this where I attend.

The remaining Blood of Christ in the chalices is to be consumed by the priest, deacon, and if necessary an EMHC at the altar.

The Priest or Deacon is to return the additional Hosts to the Tabernacle, unless they are unable to because of physical limitations.

Oh, and we had singing during our Gospel reading! The readers paused at several different points and then the choire would sing. I forget what they were singing…

The Gospel is not to be broken up in that manner and interspersed with music.

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear on that first point. I mean that no body kneels during the consecration. I will now begin the practice, since I have been informed. Thanks. I meant about the standing… that is done while everyone is recieving communion. Sometimes after I receive, I sit rather than stand, while I pray.

 

[otjm]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear on that first point. I mean that no body kneels during the consecration. I will now begin the practice, since I have been informed. Thanks. I meant about the standing… that is done while everyone is recieving communion. Sometimes after I receive, I sit rather than stand, while I pray.

According to the dubium received from Rome, after receiving and returning to your pew, you may kneel or sit.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Pax vobiscum!

Jennifer,

What you are thinking of is the posture after the Agnus Dei. The bishop can decide whether people are to stand or kneel at that point; that is up to his descretion. The posture consecration, however, is not. In the Latin Rite we are required to kneel, regardless of whether or not there are kneelers in the church (some churches removed them or built the church without them to try to get around this, but people still must kneel).

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Jennifer123]

Pax vobiscum!

Jennifer,

What you are thinking of is the posture after the Agnus Dei. The bishop can decide whether people are to stand or kneel at that point; that is up to his descretion. The posture consecration, however, is not. In the Latin Rite we are required to kneel, regardless of whether or not there are kneelers in the church (some churches removed them or built the church without them to try to get around this, but people still must kneel).

In Christ,
Rand

Thanks for the clarification, I’m glad to know that kneeling at consecration is required. I’m amazed at how many parishes I’ve been to where standing at consecration was practiced, but what I saw this particular Sunday really surprised me.

 

[Godfollower]

Furthermore, only clergy may preach at a Mass.

Among the forms of preaching, the homily, which is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon, is preeminent; in the homily the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian life are to be explained from the sacred text during the course of the liturgical year.

Canon 767, section 1.