An argument against materialism

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According to Epiphenomenalism the conscious decision does not have any causal effect in the universe since the system is closed and moves based on laws of nature. Evolution in another hand does not grant a trait which is highly useless and unprobable. This is where materialism contradicts itself.
 
According to Epiphenomenalism the conscious decision does not have any causal effect in the universe since the system is closed and moves based on laws of nature. Evolution in another hand does not grant a trait which is highly useless and unprobable. This is where materialism contradicts itself.
Excellent! 👍
 
We all live in our own bubble, we have little if any influence on anything outside that bubble,
Even bad people that ruin a country or an entire civilisation have no real impact on anything
Because our planet itself is only one tiny grain of rock inside a tiny bubble of gas,
Everything in existence has little relevance,
But Spiritualy ?

That’s an entirely different augment,
 
According to Epiphenomenalism the conscious decision does not have any causal effect in the universe since the system is closed and moves based on laws of nature. Evolution in another hand does not grant a trait which is highly useless and unprobable. This is where materialism contradicts itself.
Is this an argument against epiphenomenalism (a commonly-dualistic view) or materialism (which rejects dualism?)
 
Is this an argument against epiphenomenalism (a commonly-dualistic view) or materialism (which rejects dualism?)
The fact that the universe is closed and moves based on laws of nature leads to epiphenomenalism (a dualistic view). On the other hand we know that nature does not grant trait which is highly useless and unprobable. Therefore epiphenomenalism is wrong and this is an argument against epiphenomenalism. Thanks for your observation.
 
Is this an argument against epiphenomenalism (a commonly-dualistic view) or materialism (which rejects dualism?)
Hold on. The fact that consciousness has no causal rule in materialism and the fact that evolution does not grant a trait which is highly useless and unprobable does show that materialsim is wrong. Doesn’t it? One can argue that consciousness is the result of neurobiological activities and stick to monism.
 
Hold on. The fact that consciousness has no causal rule in materialism and the fact that evolution does not grant a trait which is highly useless and unprobable does show that materialsim is wrong. Doesn’t it? One can argue that consciousness is the result of neurobiological activities and stick to monism.
No it would appear that you’ve just shown that those two are mutually exclusive, with some arguments against both systems that you’ve named. Further, evolution doesn’t say that highly useless and unprobable things traits can’t exists. It says they don’t exist in the long term. Side bar: currently living organisms have a ton of highly useless stuff to our currently understanding. Evolution says that a system becomes more specialized and suited for an environment, not that it’s the best for the environment.

From my understanding people are moving to claim that consciousness is just the result of neurobiological activities. Further your arguments are against species of thought which reside inside of materialism, they do not directly go against materialism. Instead to disprove materialism you need to more directly argue against materialism and not its children.

I think a better place to look is at mathematics and how perfect shapes don’t actually exist (materially) and yet we have concepts of them. These concepts are necessarily of immaterial things, because a true circle can’t exist materially. Or you can look at transcendental concepts like good, truth, beauty which can’t be sufficiently defined materially. Or really to claim that anything is different from something else, and everything isn’t just “one” requires immateriality.
 
An epiphenomenon is another term for “emergence”.
Materialists are using those terms a lot now.
Consciousness, morality, free-will, mathematics, logic, intelligence. As Catholics we call these immaterial because they do not have material causes.
Materialists know that is correct, but they now call such thing epiphenomena - which is basically like magic or something coming from nothing.
It’s a means of avoiding the limitations of materialism and the many arguments against it.
At the same time, nobody can explain how "emergences’ occur or what, precisely - scientifcally, causes them. They just pop into existence.
 
Interesting, thanks for the information. Naively, it would seem then that epiphenomenon are at best a phenomenological description or when applied more rigorously, internal contradictory to there only being materiality, which is what the OP is arguing.
 
Interesting, thanks for the information. Naively, it would seem then that epiphenomenon are at best a phenomenological description or when applied more rigorously, internal contradictory to there only being materiality, which is what the OP is arguing.
Yes, exactly.

It’s not an explanation of what is observed, but rather just an attempt to describe it in materialist terms.
What is observed (in those many events and others) is that those events or entities cannot be directly tied to a material cause. So, rather than use the term “immaterial” - and we know the connotations of that - they’ll say the events are “emergent” or they’re “epiphenomena”.
But this does nothing to explain their origin. There are no known material/physical laws or forces that cause these things.
Materialism fails on that point.

The problem with a materialist (Darwinian) evolutionary attempt to explain this is, that theory relies entirely on physical matter changing by mutations and natural selection. If there is some sort of “epiphenomena”, then it is unexplained by mutations in DNA and therefore cannot be inherited in future generations.
 
No it would appear that you’ve just shown that those two are mutually exclusive, with some arguments against both systems that you’ve named. Further, evolution doesn’t say that highly useless and unprobable things traits can’t exists. It says they don’t exist in the long term. Side bar: currently living organisms have a ton of highly useless stuff to our currently understanding. Evolution says that a system becomes more specialized and suited for an environment, not that it’s the best for the environment.
I think so. My first argument is problematic since Epiphenomenalism is a concept in a dualistic picture. I missed the point. The rest of what you said I agree with it.
From my understanding people are moving to claim that consciousness is just the result of neurobiological activities. Further your arguments are against species of thought which reside inside of materialism, they do not directly go against materialism. Instead to disprove materialism you need to more directly argue against materialism and not its children.
The only important problem which is left is free will.
I think a better place to look is at mathematics and how perfect shapes don’t actually exist (materially) and yet we have concepts of them. These concepts are necessarily of immaterial things, because a true circle can’t exist materially. Or you can look at transcendental concepts like good, truth, beauty which can’t be sufficiently defined materially. Or really to claim that anything is different from something else, and everything isn’t just “one” requires immateriality.
We could be turning machine able to solve problem and ask question. We might have not developed well to verbalize concepts like meaning, justice, etc.
 
An epiphenomenon is another term for “emergence”.
Materialists are using those terms a lot now.
Consciousness, morality, free-will, mathematics, logic, intelligence. As Catholics we call these immaterial because they do not have material causes.
Free will is subject of discussion. There is a big confidence between materialist that consciousness can be explained in term of an emergent phenomena resulted from microscopic motion of particles.
Materialists know that is correct, but they now call such thing epiphenomena - which is basically like magic or something coming from nothing.
It’s a means of avoiding the limitations of materialism and the many arguments against it.
At the same time, nobody can explain how "emergences’ occur or what, precisely - scientifcally, causes them. They just pop into existence.
Emergent phenomena are situation at which matter behaves in a specific way such that the behavior can be explained by few set of parameters, like wetness of water, solidity of iron, etc. We have tons of emergent phenomena one of them consciousness.
 
Interesting, thanks for the information. Naively, it would seem then that epiphenomenon are at best a phenomenological description or when applied more rigorously, internal contradictory to there only being materiality, which is what the OP is arguing.
Please also consider post #6.
 
The only important problem which is left is free will.

We could be turning machine able to solve problem and ask question. We might have not developed well to verbalize concepts like meaning, justice, etc.
The problem for materialism isn’t just free will, but the will and intellect in general. Further it’s concepts themselves. Turing machines do not have concepts. They merely take an (name removed by moderator)ut and then transform that (name removed by moderator)ut by predefined rules to produce some output. This doesn’t seem to satisfactorily explain the phenomena of human cognition. Now contemporary philosophers will say just as you said, that our thought is ultimately mechanical and we just don’t know how to explain it yet. You can see this starting in Darwin (where he states human thought is a higher form of lesser animal thought) and in others like John Dewey (who posited that the mind is a machine that needs to be formatted when being educated to follow rules).

The big issue is concepts and the transcendental like truth, unity/difference, goodness, and beauty. These can not be explained materially. To do so ultimately reduces them to who has the most power. Hence modern society redefining what they will as they want because society believes it has the power to do so. The thing is though, the transcendental cease to exist once there is only the material. Because, they are founded upon being, which itself is not material (because matter is non being). Further to say that there is no transcendental truth, then there can’t be objective truth, that means we actually can’t communicate with each other (at least not meaningfully). That is absurd. I’m starting to get a bit to the side of where the topic started though.

Back to the point, if epiphenomenalism is being viewed as dualistic then yes it would show that materialism itself internally inconsistent. However, if epiphenomenalism is understood within a monism materialism, then epiphenomenalism is just naming some phenomena that arises from material conditions. This though is internally inconsistent too, because as I stated and others have stated, these phenomena can’t be explain by material causes.
 
The problem for materialism isn’t just free will, but the will and intellect in general. Further it’s concepts themselves. Turing machines do not have concepts. They merely take an (name removed by moderator)ut and then transform that (name removed by moderator)ut by predefined rules to produce some output. This doesn’t seem to satisfactorily explain the phenomena of human cognition.
We are only conscious of our mental activities. The intellect can be explained with a set of algorithms that partially inherent and partially learned. Simple conscious turning machine. We know that there are particles and everything most importantly consciousness arises from particles activities. There are tons of evidences in cognitive science about the fact that each mode of consciousness can be explained in term of neural activities in different part of brain, for example one part of our brain becomes active when we see red, etc. Therefore free will is the only problem. At the end free will can be only an illusion.
Now contemporary philosophers will say just as you said, that our thought is ultimately mechanical and we just don’t know how to explain it yet. You can see this starting in Darwin (where he states human thought is a higher form of lesser animal thought) and in others like John Dewey (who posited that the mind is a machine that needs to be formatted when being educated to follow rules).
Yes.
The big issue is concepts and the transcendental like truth, unity/difference, goodness, and beauty. These can not be explained materially. To do so ultimately reduces them to who has the most power. Hence modern society redefining what they will as they want because society believes it has the power to do so. The thing is though, the transcendental cease to exist once there is only the material. Because, they are founded upon being, which itself is not material (because matter is non being). Further to say that there is no transcendental truth, then there can’t be objective truth, that means we actually can’t communicate with each other (at least not meaningfully). That is absurd. I’m starting to get a bit to the side of where the topic started though.
How do you know that truth is transcendental? We experience beauty, goodness, etc but cannot verbalize them. We only might not cognitively developed well to verbalize these concepts.
Back to the point, if epiphenomenalism is being viewed as dualistic then yes it would show that materialism itself internally inconsistent. However, if epiphenomenalism is understood within a monism materialism, then epiphenomenalism is just naming some phenomena that arises from material conditions. This though is internally inconsistent too, because as I stated and others have stated, these phenomena can’t be explain by material causes.
Epiphenomena is a dualistic concept. Consciousness is an emergent phenomena according to the latest studies.
 
Emergent phenomena are situation at which matter behaves in a specific way such that the behavior can be explained by few set of parameters, like wetness of water, solidity of iron, etc. We have tons of emergent phenomena one of them consciousness.
The term “emergent” in this case is a substitute for “we cannot explain it”.
We cannot explain why two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen create wetness of water. It’s just something that happens. Materialism cannot explain it.
Yes it’s the same with consciousness.
But we also cannot explain why physical laws act on matter the way they do? Materialism cannot explain where these laws came from.
 
The term “emergent” in this case is a substitute for “we cannot explain it”.
We cannot explain why two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen create wetness of water. It’s just something that happens. Materialism cannot explain it.
Yes it’s the same with consciousness.
Materialism can explain the wetness of water in term of the attributes and motion of simple particles.
But we also cannot explain why physical laws act on matter the way they do? Materialism cannot explain where these laws came from.
Matter has attributes and simply exist. Matter simply obeys the laws of nature because it has attributes.
 
We are only conscious of our mental activities. The intellect can be explained with a set of algorithms that partially inherent and partially learned. Simple conscious turning machine. We know that there are particles and everything most importantly consciousness arises from particles activities. There are tons of evidences in cognitive science about the fact that each mode of consciousness can be explained in term of neural activities in different part of brain, for example one part of our brain becomes active when we see red, etc. Therefore free will is the only problem. At the end free will can be only an illusion.
This is where we need to be more clear about terms, because I was using consciousness and intellect a bit sloppy. Yes, we can explain consciousness by science, but not the intellect. That is a spiritual or immaterial power and so is impossible, by definition, to explain materially. Those operative faculties that we can explain scientifically are merely organic and not powers of the intellect properly speaking. That is not to say that the intellect doesn’t use the organic faculties though. For example: there are cases of people that are in comas and no brain activity that leave the coma and have thoughts from the period of the coma. That could not be possible if the intellect is just material.
How do you know that truth is transcendental? We experience beauty, goodness, etc but cannot verbalize them. We only might not cognitively developed well to verbalize these concepts.
This depends upon how we understand truth and transcendental. When I say transcendental I am already applying the notion of Aristotelian categories, not how Kant understood transcendental. The transcendentals are those categories that are above all genus and apply to all genus and species. So they transcend the ten categories. This is a result of the transcendental applying to any being. So insofar as a thing is: it is true, it is good, and it is one (and so not some other thing). Truth is being as understood by the apprehended and good is being as apprehended by the will. So I can very exactly say what truth and goodness are.
Epiphenomena is a dualistic concept. Consciousness is an emergent phenomena according to the latest studies.
If we define consciousness as just the organic material operative powers, then yes it is an emergent phenomena. That’s not a problem. The intellect though is beyond mere consciousness.

You could say that a machine can replicate human thought. Here’s the thing though, I’m from the software field. Current models of ML (machine learning) are not thinking or learning in the way we think and learn. The field still doesn’t even have a clue how to replicate human thought. Instead it is trying to mimic thought. You could say that we just haven’t figured it out yet, but then I could equally say we might not be able to. It is on you to demonstrate that it is actually possible, because currently they don’t have an actual idea how to.
Materialism can explain the wetness of water in term of the attributes and motion of simple particles.
But it can’t explain why those simple particles behave as they do. Quantum Mechanics seemingly comes down to particles resolving into fields which are ordered in particular energy angles and levels. But the question still remains, what makes those field those fields? If everything comes down to energy, then what is energy? Pure energy doesn’t exist, it is always of something. Either at a quantum level as fields or at the micro/macro level as (physical) matter. Light itself isn’t pure energy but also a particle. So what gives rise of the most fundamental properties of energy and why can we say that this energy is now a field and this energy is stuff and this energy is light. Materialism can’t explain that because that difference is only possible to explain by bring in the immaterial concept of form.
 
This is where we need to be more clear about terms, because I was using consciousness and intellect a bit sloppy. Yes, we can explain consciousness by science, but not the intellect. That is a spiritual or immaterial power and so is impossible, by definition, to explain materially. Those operative faculties that we can explain scientifically are merely organic and not powers of the intellect properly speaking. That is not to say that the intellect doesn’t use the organic faculties though. For example: there are cases of people that are in comas and no brain activity that leave the coma and have thoughts from the period of the coma. That could not be possible if the intellect is just material.
You need to prove that intellect is spiritual. There might be a creature in another part of the universe who is cognitively open to the concept of intellect. The universe is infinite (I have an argument for that).
This depends upon how we understand truth and transcendental. When I say transcendental I am already applying the notion of Aristotelian categories, not how Kant understood transcendental. The transcendentals are those categories that are above all genus and apply to all genus and species. So they transcend the ten categories. This is a result of the transcendental applying to any being. So insofar as a thing is: it is true, it is good, and it is one (and so not some other thing). Truth is being as understood by the apprehended and good is being as apprehended by the will. So I can very exactly say what truth and goodness are.
I think the only transcendental thing is free will if there is any.
If we define consciousness as just the organic material operative powers, then yes it is an emergent phenomena. That’s not a problem. The intellect though is beyond mere consciousness.
There are specific areas in the brain that is responsible for reasoning. There is even a place for self.
You could say that a machine can replicate human thought. Here’s the thing though, I’m from the software field. Current models of ML (machine learning) are not thinking or learning in the way we think and learn. The field still doesn’t even have a clue how to replicate human thought. Instead it is trying to mimic thought. You could say that we just haven’t figured it out yet, but then I could equally say we might not be able to. It is on you to demonstrate that it is actually possible, because currently they don’t have an actual idea how to.
Yes, I agree with you. It is very difficult. We might cognitively be not to the process of thinking too.
But it can’t explain why those simple particles behave as they do. Quantum Mechanics seemingly comes down to particles resolving into fields which are ordered in particular energy angles and levels. But the question still remains, what makes those field those fields? If everything comes down to energy, then what is energy? Pure energy doesn’t exist, it is always of something. Either at a quantum level as fields or at the micro/macro level as (physical) matter. Light itself isn’t pure energy but also a particle. So what gives rise of the most fundamental properties of energy and why can we say that this energy is now a field and this energy is stuff and this energy is light. Materialism can’t explain that because that difference is only possible to explain by bring in the immaterial concept of form.
We don’t know whether matter has structure or not. The last attempt, string theory and its family, failed to reproduce proper set of particles. So we simply don’t know yet.
 
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