An explanation of Matthew 16:13-18 with regard to "the Anointed One" and "the Rock" and "the key of David"

[Nicea325]

No because it is obvious from history that the Catholic Church as you know it has transformed from the days of Peter into what it is today.

We is anyone who reads the Bible. Anyone that wants to join in, but OK maybe we are the non-Catholic Christians.

We are immediately given the reason for the name changes of Abraham, Sarah and Jacob. We see through scripture that the name changes are supported.

The reason for Peter’s name change is not mentioned. But He was the one who eventually uttered the truth about who Jesus is.

Check out these verses who is the rock?

Deuteronomy 32
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.
…
18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
you forgot the God who gave you birth.
…
31 For their rock is not like our Rock,
as even our enemies concede.

Isaiah 17
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,

Psalm 94
22But the LORD has become my fortress,
and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.

Romans 9
33As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

1 Corinthians 10
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Christians are all like living stone:
1 Peter 2
4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,” 8and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

All the Prophets and Apostles are the foundation of Jesus’ Church:
Ephesians 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

As I said before I simply choose to want a Church built on truth that Jesus is the rock the Son of the living GOD, the Chief corner stone.

I do not deny that the Apostles and Prophets are part of the sturdy foundation for Jesus’ Church or the fact that each of us is being added to HIS Church.

The reason for Peter’s name change is not mentioned. But He was the one who eventually uttered the truth about who Jesus is.

One of the many errors of non-Catholics,the belief the Bible has to explicitly say everything.

And check out the following verses applying the rock to others.

Not only does Scripture call Peter the rock, but it also calls Abraham the rock, in Isaiah 51:1-2. Also, who is the Light of the World? Jesus Christ is in John 8:12, but yet the Disciples are in Matthew 5:14.The words “Rock” and “Light of the World” are not limited to describe GOD alone.

The Law of First Mention…

When something is first mentioned in the Bible, the meaning of it remains the same throughout the rest of the Bible.

When GOD gave authority to someone in Scripture, HE changed the name of that person.

1. GOD renamed Abram to Abraham when He made him the ‘Father of a Multitude of Nations’, in Gen 17:5. HE gave Abraham ‘primacy’ over all other men.
2. GOD renamed Sara to Sarah when HE made her the ‘Mother of Nations’ in Gen 17:15-16. HE gave Sarah ‘primacy’ over all other women.
3. GOD renamed Jacob to Israel, the name of the Jewish Nation, and Jacob became the first Israeli in Gen 32:29, 35:10.
4. GOD renamed Simon to Peter in Matt 16:18, thus giving him ‘primacy’ over all of the Apostles. Why else would GOD give a new name to Simon?

The ‘Law of First Mention’ as applied to Abraham, Sarah, and Israel, works very well indeed. Why then do some believe it does not work for Simon-Peter?

 

[adrift]

No because it is obvious from history that the Catholic Church as you know it has transformed from the days of Peter into what it is today.

This implies that it IS the same Church from the days of the Apostles. Transformed? I doubt if you could show any such thing. Jesus gave His Church protection. The Church as I know it is the same as those who worshiped In the first century all the way to now. I am not talking about unimportant window dressing. What the Apostles taught, is taught now. What was believed by early Christians is the same now.

We is anyone who reads the Bible. Anyone that wants to join in, but OK maybe we are the non-Catholic Christians.

I was really just joking with you. Well if it is anyone who reads the Bible, you definitely do not speak for all. I know many non-Catholic Christians who would also disagree with you.

We are immediately given the reason for the name changes of Abraham, Sarah and Jacob. We see through scripture that the name changes are supported.

Help me out. what reason is given for Sarah?

The reason for Peter’s name change is not mentioned. But He was the one who eventually uttered the truth about who Jesus is.

.
This is where we disagree with you.

upon this rock I will build my church

sounds like a reason.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

No because it is obvious from history that the Catholic Church as you know it has transformed from the days of Peter into what it is today.

Firstly this is vague. What “changes” are you referring to? Are they changes in mere practices? Or are they actual changes in doctrine? Are they actual changes or just merely developments-fuller understandings and elaborations-on already revealed truths of the Faith?

Secondly, the statement begs the question…Do you have proof of these changes? Or do you just believe this because you have to believe it in order for your traditions to be true?

We is anyone who reads the Bible. Anyone that wants to join in, but OK maybe we are the non-Catholic Christians.

We are immediately given the reason for the name changes of Abraham, Sarah and Jacob. We see through scripture that the name changes are supported.

The reason for Peter’s name change is not mentioned. But He was the one who eventually uttered the truth about who Jesus is.

The reason is mentioned in the next verse! “And to you(Peter) I(Jesus) will give the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven(the Church). Whatever you(Peter) bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you(Peter) loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

To not see the reason has to be you just being purposefully obtuse.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Check out these verses who is the rock?

Deuteronomy 32
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.
…
18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
you forgot the God who gave you birth.
…
31 For their rock is not like our Rock,
as even our enemies concede.

Isaiah 17
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,

Psalm 94
22But the LORD has become my fortress,
and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.

Romans 9
33As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

1 Corinthians 10
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Christians are all like living stone:
1 Peter 2
4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,” 8and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

All the Prophets and Apostles are the foundation of Jesus’ Church:
Ephesians 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

As I said before I simply choose to want a Church built on truth that Jesus is the rock the Son of the living GOD, the Chief corner stone.

I do not deny that the Apostles and Prophets are part of the sturdy foundation for Jesus’ Church or the fact that each of us is being added to HIS Church.

And again, the Catholic position does not deny any of these verses. It should be self-evident that when Jesus gives Simon a name whose meaning is reserved in scripture for Himself that Simon role and mission is sigular compaired to the rest of the Eleven-especially as indicated in the following verses about “the Keys”.

Isaiah 22:[15] Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts, "Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him:
[16] What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock?
[17] Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you,
[18] and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house.
[19] I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station.
**[20] In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah,
[21] and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
[22] And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
[23] And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.
[24] And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. **

That you continue to be obtuse and continue to regurgitate the same failed line of reasoning tells me that you care more about hanging on to your man-made tradition than to just take the Bible at face value and accept what it clearly says as a coherent whole.

At this I must shake the dust from my shoes and leave you in God’s sure hands. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[ParkerD]

No because it is obvious from history that the Catholic Church as you know it has transformed from the days of Peter into what it is today.

We is anyone who reads the Bible. Anyone that wants to join in, but OK maybe we are the non-Catholic Christians.

We are immediately given the reason for the name changes of Abraham, Sarah and Jacob. We see through scripture that the name changes are supported.

The reason for Peter’s name change is not mentioned. But He was the one who eventually uttered the truth about who Jesus is.

Check out these verses who is the rock?

Deuteronomy 32
4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.
…
18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
you forgot the God who gave you birth.
…
31 For their rock is not like our Rock,
as even our enemies concede.

Isaiah 17
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,

Psalm 94
22But the LORD has become my fortress,
and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.

Romans 9
33As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

1 Corinthians 10
4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Christians are all like living stone:
1 Peter 2
4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame."7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,” 8and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

All the Prophets and Apostles are the foundation of Jesus’ Church:
Ephesians 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

As I said before I simply choose to want a Church built on truth that Jesus is the rock the Son of the living GOD, the Chief corner stone.

I do not deny that the Apostles and Prophets are part of the sturdy foundation for Jesus’ Church or the fact that each of us is being added to HIS Church.

Schaick,

You have made some significant and important observations here and throughout this conversation. Thanks for sharing them. Your insights have been logical throughout. I have appreciated reading them, and observing how unshakable you are just as Christ promised.

Peace to all. May Christ truly be each one’s foundation, that He may build each one up, individually and thus collectively, through His grace and the guidance He will bring to each directly, with no intermediary, to make changes in their life through that atoning grace.

He “hath the key of David”. No man holds that key. (Revelation 3:7)

 

[Javl]

I guess Parker, the LDS, shaick, and the rest of non-Catholics on this thread have either not read my post on Matt 16:13-18, or have chosen to ignore it, since it doesn’t agree with what they want it to say, and continue in misguided understanding about the passage.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

Schaick,

You have made some significant and important observations here and throughout this conversation. Thanks for sharing them. Your insights have been logical throughout. I have appreciated reading them, and observing how unshakable you are just as Christ promised.

Peace to all. May Christ truly be each one’s foundation, that He may build each one up, individually and thus collectively, through His grace and the guidance He will bring to each directly, with no intermediary, to make changes in their life through that atoning grace.

He “hath the key of David”. No man holds that key. (Revelation 3:7)

Hi Parker. Now lets back up for a second here. Do you agree that Jesus has the keys to the kingdom? I hope that would be a yes. Now do you agree that Jesus was indeed a Man? Human and Divine? I hope we agree again.

Now Jesus did not say to Peter that he gives him the keys to the kingdom in heaven, If he did I missed it. I heard him say to you Peter I give the keys to the kingdom. Now that would HAVE to be Jesus’ kingdom on earth do you not agree?

Because why would he say AFTER that whatever you Bind on EARTH is Bound in Heaven. Would that not mean that whatever Peter would say goes here in this kingdom would also have to go in the kingdom of heaven?

Now Jesus gave us the sacraments. They are the ACTIONS of the HOLY SPIRIT at work in HIS BODY the CHURCH. They are the works of God in the NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENENT.

Again think about it God always established Covenents. In Noah it was the rainbow. In Abraham it was circumcisim.

In us it was the Sacraments. What seems to get lost in everyones faith is the truth. And the real truth isn’t that my Church or my God, or my faith, it better than yours. The real truth is what Church has ALL of the Sacraments.

That is the real thing you must see. Jesus did extra-ordinary things on this earth by ordinary earthly means. Think about it, when Jesus TOUCHED the paralytic pick up pallet and walk what got the peoples attention. The healing? But that is not what Jesus was saying at all was he. When he said which is easier to say stand and walk or Your sins are forgiven. Jesus thought the answer should be obvious to us.

Jesus came to bring Salvation. His physical cure was the outward sign to show the deeper inward sign of healing the soul.

That is why he established his Church and the Sacraments. An OUTWARD sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Look how he took mud and gave a man sight. Look how he became Man to work miraces. He didn’t have to do this. But he did this for our sake not his. Because we are human and he showed us.

That is why he established HIMSELF IN the LIVING CHURCH.The Church is his living body. 1 Cor 12:12-27 Col 1:24 Rom 12:5. The Power that came at Pentecost to the CLOSE OF AGE. Matt 28:20

The CC is the extension of Christ’s incarnation and the extensions takes place throught the sacraments. But until Christ comes in glory that is how we participate with him in this life and become to know him more fully.

When CHrist comes in glory he will no longer work through the sacraments that will cease. Now we know him through signs and through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12) Then we will see him as HE IS (1 Jn 3:2) and will have no need of signs.

Jesus commanded his Priests to celebrate his sacraments WITH him THROUGH him throught ALL TIME ON EARTH.

Baptism (Baptise all nations Mt 28:19
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:24) Do this in memory of me.

Every sacrament involves words and actions.

Confirmation. In confirmation we receive the fullness of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Penance John If yo forgive the sins of any they are forgiven, if you retain the sins they are retained.

Anointing of the Sick. James 5:14-15 If any among you is sick let him call on the elders of the Church and let them pray over you and ANOINT you with the OIL in the name of the Lord.

Holy Orders. Matt. 10:8 He Breathed on them and enable them to heal in HIS NAME.

Marriage. Eph. 5:31 A Man shall leave his Mother and Father and become one flesh. This is a mystery as St Paul says a profound one. And I am saying that it refers also to Christ and the Church.

They are all Sacraments Parker. That is why it is the One True Church. They are all visible signs given to us by Jesus. This is how we know the true Church. God made a new creation. He gave us the signs the bible shows you all through it how by every little thing he was DOING these SACRAMENTS outward signs to show us the true CHURCH in him he was Establishing.

He choose Peter to lead the Church as an outward sign but that is why the Church is both human and divine. He is using Human Means the Pope and Bishops, Priests through him in the Living Church to do Extra-Ordinary deeds.

That is why he knew there would be many people, Church claiming to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH so he showed us what they must have.

That is why Parker you will never hear me ever degrade you or your Church for the truth that it has. Because that is Gods Truth. But you do not have ALL of the Sacraments that is why you do not have the FULLNESS of the truth.

That is the MAIN reason the RCC is the ONE TRUE CHURCH. It has all of the Sacraments.

 

[Jay53]

Hi Parker. Now lets back up for a second here. Do you agree that Jesus has the keys to the kingdom? I hope that would be a yes. Now do you agree that Jesus was indeed a Man? Human and Divine? I hope we agree again.

Now Jesus did not say to Peter that he gives him the keys to the kingdom in heaven, If he did I missed it. I heard him say to you Peter I give the keys to the kingdom. Now that would HAVE to be Jesus’ kingdom on earth do you not agree?

Because why would he say AFTER that whatever you Bind on EARTH is Bound in Heaven. Would that not mean that whatever Peter would say goes here in this kingdom would also have to go in the kingdom of heaven?

Now Jesus gave us the sacraments. They are the ACTIONS of the HOLY SPIRIT at work in HIS BODY the CHURCH. They are the works of God in the NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENENT.

Again think about it God always established Covenents. In Noah it was the rainbow. In Abraham it was circumcisim.

In us it was the Sacraments. What seems to get lost in everyones faith is the truth. And the real truth isn’t that my Church or my God, or my faith, it better than yours. The real truth is what Church has ALL of the Sacraments.

That is the real thing you must see. Jesus did extra-ordinary things on this earth by ordinary earthly means. Think about it, when Jesus TOUCHED the paralytic pick up pallet and walk what got the peoples attention. The healing? But that is not what Jesus was saying at all was he. When he said which is easier to say stand and walk or Your sins are forgiven. Jesus thought the answer should be obvious to us.

Jesus came to bring Salvation. His physical cure was the outward sign to show the deeper inward sign of healing the soul.

That is why he established his Church and the Sacraments. An OUTWARD sign instituted by Christ to give grace.

Look how he took mud and gave a man sight. Look how he became Man to work miraces. He didn’t have to do this. But he did this for our sake not his. Because we are human and he showed us.

That is why he established HIMSELF IN the LIVING CHURCH.The Church is his living body. 1 Cor 12:12-27 Col 1:24 Rom 12:5. The Power that came at Pentecost to the CLOSE OF AGE. Matt 28:20

The CC is the extension of Christ’s incarnation and the extensions takes place throught the sacraments. But until Christ comes in glory that is how we participate with him in this life and become to know him more fully.

When CHrist comes in glory he will no longer work through the sacraments that will cease. Now we know him through signs and through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12) Then we will see him as HE IS (1 Jn 3:2) and will have no need of signs.

Jesus commanded his Priests to celebrate his sacraments WITH him THROUGH him throught ALL TIME ON EARTH.

Baptism (Baptise all nations Mt 28:19
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:24) Do this in memory of me.

Every sacrament involves words and actions.

Confirmation. In confirmation we receive the fullness of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Penance John If yo forgive the sins of any they are forgiven, if you retain the sins they are retained.

Anointing of the Sick. James 5:14-15 If any among you is sick let him call on the elders of the Church and let them pray over you and ANOINT you with the OIL in the name of the Lord.

Holy Orders. Matt. 10:8 He Breathed on them and enable them to heal in HIS NAME.

Marriage. Eph. 5:31 A Man shall leave his Mother and Father and become one flesh. This is a mystery as St Paul says a profound one. And I am saying that it refers also to Christ and the Church.

They are all Sacraments Parker. That is why it is the One True Church. They are all visible signs given to us by Jesus. This is how we know the true Church. God made a new creation. He gave us the signs the bible shows you all through it how by every little thing he was DOING these SACRAMENTS outward signs to show us the true CHURCH in him he was Establishing.

He choose Peter to lead the Church as an outward sign but that is why the Church is both human and divine. He is using Human Means the Pope and Bishops, Priests through him in the Living Church to do Extra-Ordinary deeds.

That is why he knew there would be many people, Church claiming to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH so he showed us what they must have.

That is why Parker you will never hear me ever degrade you or your Church for the truth that it has. Because that is Gods Truth. But you do not have ALL of the Sacraments that is why you do not have the FULLNESS of the truth.

That is the MAIN reason the RCC is the ONE TRUE CHURCH. It has all of the Sacraments.

VERY well said!!

 

[ParkerD]

I guess Parker, shaick, and the rest of non-Catholics on this thread have either not read my post on Matt 16:13-18, or have chosen to ignore it, since it doesn’t agree with what they want it to say, and continue in misguided understanding about the passage.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,
Just so you may be aware, I did read the two posts that I assume you are referring to, and they brought up a couple of points that hadn’t already previously been discussed about Peter and the rest of the Twelve Apostles. I don’t think Peter considered himself to be the spokesman for the twelve, nor does the rest of the New Testament present Peter as the spokesman for the twelve nor that Christ considered him to be such. He was the first-chosen apostle, presumably the first to be ordained an apostle. He was a leader among the twelve. But every one of the apostles would have been expected to seek (if they didn’t already have) the same kind of “revelation” that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Peter had received; and every member of His congregation of believers should be desirous and seeking and expecting to receive that same kind of “revelation”, for that is exactly what Jesus taught about knowing He is the promised Messiah, the Christ, the Rock of salvation.

Rinnie,
Thanks for your kind interest. If the word “church” in your mind means “the members of the body of Christ” (meaning the believers in Christ), then that is what I meant when I used the words “congregation of believers”. Christ will build His “congregation of believers” on the Rock of salvation, for through Him they will receive the grace they need to grow to become like Him. This means change, prayerful growth, repentance, forgiveness, and the kind of love that you show so often (thanks).

Again, peace to all.

 

[rinnie]

JAVL,
Just so you may be aware, I did read the two posts that I assume you are referring to, and they brought up a couple of points that hadn’t already previously been discussed about Peter and the rest of the Twelve Apostles. I don’t think Peter considered himself to be the spokesman for the twelve, nor does the rest of the New Testament present Peter as the spokesman for the twelve nor that Christ considered him to be such. He was the first-chosen apostle, presumably the first to be ordained an apostle. He was a leader among the twelve. But every one of the apostles would have been expected to seek (if they didn’t already have) the same kind of “revelation” that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Peter had received; and every member of His congregation of believers should be desirous and seeking and expecting to receive that same kind of “revelation”, for that is exactly what Jesus taught about knowing He is the promised Messiah, the Christ, the Rock of salvation.

Rinnie,
Thanks for your kind interest. If the word “church” in your mind means “the members of the body of Christ” (meaning the believers in Christ), then that is what I meant when I used the words “congregation of believers”. Christ will build His “congregation of believers” on the Rock of salvation, for through Him they will receive the grace they need to grow to become like Him. This means change, prayerful growth, repentance, forgiveness, and the kind of love that you show so often (thanks).

Again, peace to all.

Actually Love the N.T. does present Peter as the spokeperson.

Lets start with this one for example.

Acts 14 Peter Lead Apostles in preaching in Pentecost. Remember what he said GOD MADE HIS CHOICE among YOU tat through MY MOUTH.

Acts 2:41 Peter received the first converts.

Acts 8:21 Peter excommunicated the first herticm Simon Magnus

Acts 15 Peter led the first council in Jerusalem.

Acts 1:13-26 Peter headed the meeting which elected Matthias to replace Judas

Acts 3:6-7 Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost.

John 21:17 Given Christ’s flock as cheif shepherd

Luke 22:32 Peters FAITH will STRENGHTEN his Brethren. Note the word YOU in greek it is the personal tense, not the Plural you like all you apostles.

As far as the keys. St Jerome who translated the text to Greek would never give a female ending to a masculine person. So conversations about Petros and Petra therefore are irrelevant. Aramaic is the NATIVE tongue for the IMMEDIATE DISCIPLES. And the word for Rock is Kepha.

And sorry Love Church to me is Jesus Christ. He is the RCC the Pillar of all Truth. But I still love ya

Hey side note, I had a wedding last Sat and the groom was from your Church. So the brides side there was alot if People. So they asked me bride or groom so I thought of You and said I will sit on the grooms side, it does not matter. So I sat with the People from your Church. Guess what! They liked me too

 

[adrift]

This deserves a second look

Parker, shaick, and all LDS:

Please read the following:

Let us again examine the text and context of the important dialogue handed down to us by the evangelist Matthew. After asking: “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” (Mt 16:13), Jesus asked his apostles a more direct question: “But who do you say that I am?” (Mt 16:15). It is already significant that Simon answered in the name of the Twelve: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (Mt 16:13-16). One might think that Simon made himself the spokesman for the Twelve by force of his own more vigorous and impulsive personality. Possibly this factor came into play to some extent. However, Jesus attributed his answer to a special revelation from the heavenly Father: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father” (Mt 16:17). Above and beyond factors of temperament, character, ethnic background or social status (“flesh and blood”), Simon was the beneficiary of an illumination and inspiration from on high that Jesus identified as “revelation.” In virtue of this revelation Simon made a profession of faith in the name of the Twelve.

Here is Jesus’ declaration, which in the very solemnity of its form manifests the binding and constitutive meaning that the Teacher intends to give it: “And so I say to you, you are Peter” (Mt 16:18). The declaration is indeed solemn: “I say to you.” It involves Jesus’ sovereign authority. It is a word of revelation, of effective revelation in that it accomplishes what it says.

A new name was given to Simon, the sign of a new mission. That this name was given is confirmed by Mark (3:16) and Luke (6:14) in their accounts of the choice of the Twelve. John also speaks of it, indicating that Jesus used the Aramaic word Kephas , which in Greek is translated as Petros (Jn 1:42).

We should remember that the Aramaic word Kephas which Jesus used, as well as the Greek word Petros which translates it, means “rock.” In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus gave the example of the “wise man who built his house on rock” (Mt 7:24). Addressing Simon, Jesus declared to him that because of his faith, a gift from God, he had the solidity of rock upon which an unshakable edifice could be built. Jesus then stated his own decision to build on this rock just such a building–his Church.

In other passages of the New Testament we find similar although not identical images. In some texts Jesus himself is not called the “rock” on which something is built, but the “stone” which is used in building, the “cornerstone” which ensures the solidity of the structure. The builder then is not Jesus, but God the Father (cf. Mk 12:10-11; 1 Pet 2:4-7). Thus the viewpoints are different.

The Apostle Paul expresses yet another perspective when he reminds the Corinthians that “like a wise master builder” he “laid the foundation” of their Church and then indicates that this foundation is “Jesus Christ” (cf. 1 Cor 3:10-11).

Through the diversity of particular viewpoints one can nevertheless notice a basic relationship allowing us to conclude that by giving him a new name, Jesus made Simon Peter a sharer in his own capacity as foundation. Between Christ and Peter there is a foundational relationship rooted in the profound reality where the divine vocation is translated into a specific mission conferred by the Messiah.

Jesus went on to say: “Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18). These words attest to Jesus’ will to build his Church with an essential reference to the specific mission and power that in due time he would confer on Simon. Jesus described Simon Peter as the foundation on which the Church would be built. The Christ-Peter relationship is thus reflected in the Peter-Church relationship. It imbues it with value and discloses its theological and spiritual meaning, which is objectively and ecclesially the basis of its juridical significance.

Matthew is the only evangelist who records these words for us. But it must be remembered that Matthew is also the only one who collected the recollections concerning Peter specifically (cf. Mt 14:28-31). Perhaps this was with reference to the communities for which he wrote his Gospel and in which he wanted to instill the new idea of the “assembly called together” in the name of Christ present in Peter.

On the other hand, the “new name” of Peter which Jesus gave to Simon is confirmed by the other evangelists, without any difference in meaning attributed to it than that given by Matthew. Moreover, there is no other meaning it could possibly have

( Continued )

 

[adrift]

( Continue )

The text of the evangelist Matthew (16:15-18) which presents Peter as the foundation of the Church has been the subject of many debates, too lengthy to repeat here. It is also the subject of denials which do not derive so much from proofs based on the biblical texts and Christian Tradition as much as from difficulty in understanding the mission and power of Peter and his successors. Without going into detail, here we simply point out that Jesus’ words as recorded by Matthew have an unquestionable Semitic tone to them, noticeable even in the Greek and Latin translations. Furthermore, they involve an inexplicable innovation precisely in the Jewish cultural and religious context in which the evangelist presents them. In contemporary Judaism the role of foundation stone was not attributed to any religious leader; however, Jesus attributed it to Peter. This is the great innovation introduced by Jesus. It could not be the product of human invention, neither in Matthew nor in later authors.

We must also point out that the “Rock” of which Jesus spoke is properly the person of Simon. Jesus said to him: “You are Kephas.” The context of this statement enables us to understand better the sense of that “you-person.” After Simon said who Jesus is, Jesus said who Simon is, according to his own plan for building the Church. It is true that Simon is called rock after the profession of faith, and that implies a relationship between faith and the role of rock conferred on Simon. However, the role of rock is attributed to the person of Simon, not to an act of his, however noble and pleasing to Jesus. The word “rock” expresses a permanent, subsisting being; therefore, it applies to the person, rather than to one of his necessarily transitory acts. Jesus’ subsequent words confirm this when he said that the gates of the netherworld, the powers of death, will not prevail “against it.” This expression can refer to the Church or to the rock. In any case, according to the logic of the discourse, the Church founded on the rock cannot be destroyed. The Church’s permanence is connected with the rock. The Peter-Church relationship in itself reproduces the link between the Church and Christ. Jesus in fact said “my Church.” This means that the Church will always be the Church of Christ, the Church which belongs to Christ. She does not become Peter’s Church. However, as the Church of Christ she is built on Peter, who is Kephas in the name and by the power of Christ.

The evangelist Matthew records another metaphor which Jesus used to explain to Simon Peter, and to the other apostles, what he wanted to do with him: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 16:19). Here too we immediately note that, according to biblical tradition, the Messiah possesses the keys of the kingdom. The Book of Revelation repeats the expressions of the prophet Isaiah and presents Christ as “the holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open” (Rev 3:7). The text of Isaiah (22:22) which concerns a certain Eliakim was seen as a prophetic expression of the messianic age when the “key” would not be for opening or closing the house of David (as a building or as a dynasty), but for opening the “kingdom of heaven,” this new, transcendent reality proclaimed and ushered in by Jesus.

Jesus is the one who, according to the Letter to the Hebrews, “entered the heavenly sanctuary” (cf. 9:24) through his sacrifice. He possesses its keys and opens its gates. Jesus handed these keys over to Peter, who thus received power over the kingdom, power which he will exercise in Christ’s name, as his steward and the head of the Church, the house which gathers together those who believe in Christ, the children of God.

Jesus indeed said to Peter: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:19). This is another simile Jesus used to show his will to confer on Simon Peter a universal and complete power guaranteed and authenticated by heavenly approval. This does not mean only the power to formulate points of doctrine or general norms of action. According to Jesus, it is the power of “binding and loosing,” that is, of doing whatever is necessary for the life and development of the Church. The opposing terms “binding-loosing” serve to show the totality of the power.

It should be immediately added, however, that the aim of this power is to open the entrance to the kingdom, not to close it: “open,” that is, to make it possible to enter the kingdom of heaven and not to place obstacles that would be equivalent to “closing” it. This is the proper purpose of the Petrine ministry, rooted in the redemptive sacrifice of Christ who came to save and to be the gate and shepherd of all in the communion of the one fold (cf. Jn 10:7, 11, 16). Through his sacrifice Christ became “the gate for the sheep,” the symbol of which was that built by Eliashib, the high priest, who with his priestly brothers worked to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in the middle of the fifth century before Christ (cf. Neh 3:1). The Messiah is the true gate of the New Jerusalem built through his blood shed upon the cross. He entrusted the keys of this gate to Peter so that he might be the minister of his saving power in the Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
Just so you may be aware, I did read the two posts that I assume you are referring to, and they brought up a couple of points that hadn’t already previously been discussed about Peter and the rest of the Twelve Apostles. I don’t think Peter considered himself to be the spokesman for the twelve, nor does the rest of the New Testament present Peter as the spokesman for the twelve nor that Christ considered him to be such. He was the first-chosen apostle, presumably the first to be ordained an apostle. He was a leader among the twelve. But every one of the apostles would have been expected to seek (if they didn’t already have) the same kind of “revelation” that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Peter had received; and every member of His congregation of believers should be desirous and seeking and expecting to receive that same kind of “revelation”, for that is exactly what Jesus taught about knowing He is the promised Messiah, the Christ, the Rock of salvation.

Again, peace to all.

You are correct to say that Simon-Peter did not consider himself to be the leader or spokesmsn for all the twelve, but Jesus did appoint him as such. Whether or not Simon-Peter was the first chosen Apostle is irrelevant. It was Simon bar Jonah that had his name changed to “rock” ( Peter, in English ). It was to Simon-Peter that Jesus said he will build His Church on. It was to Simon-Peter first that Jesus gave His great commission. It was Simon-Peter who led the infant Church, the first body of believers. It was Simon-Peter who exposed, and convicted Ananias, and there are many more instances of Simon-Peter’s primacy among the Apostles. And Paul recognized this, even though Paul did stand up to him on the matter of Judaization and corrected him.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[schaick]

I found this that refutes your article

The earliest manuscript that I could find was about the 5th century. Your web site is interesting but biased.

Historically we know that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic among His friends.

LOL! adrift -Did you realize that you linked to a muslim site it’s sole purpose of existance is to prove corruption of the Bible. You really can’t trust Islamic scholarship of the Bible.

Muslims like to say that the Gospel can not be Jesus’ Gospel [they think HE wrote it] because it was first written in Greek and not in Aramaic.

The site I linked to is for witnessing to Muslims about the truth of Christiainity and the Bible.

 

[schaick]

Originally Posted by schaick
How do Catholics understand the following?:

Ephesians 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

This does not refute the Catholic position. So what’s your point?

Catholics say that it is just on Peter that Jesus built HIS Church.

How do you make the 2 mesh?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is a new take and a bizarre one at that? Peter didn’t realize or consider himself the leader? I thought he was infallible and had a supremacy over all the other apostles from Catholic belief? I wonder how it is that he didn’t realize he was the leader of the universal church and yet his descendants embraced the role with a flourish and declared themselves officially infallible, the sole source of unity for Christendom, supreme over all jurisdictions, etc.?

It was indeed interesting how Paul stood up to Peter at Jerusalem. It was also interesting how James led the council. I always found it fascinating how all the councils were usually summoned by emperors or other bishops, too. Interesting also that Peter, in his epistle, calls himself a “presbyter” and that Paul dominated the New Testament epistleship and theological arguments compared to Peter.

I’ve read some early fathers claim that the rock that the Church was built on was Peter’s confession, the reality that Christ Almighty is the Son of Man, the foundation being the truth and strength of Christ, the confession Peter made, not necessarily Peter himself. Many learned bishops in the Orthodox Church believe this today as with many other theologians. Your argument is a perfectly valid and typical Catholic approach to the Matthew 16:18 passage. But it’s not the only one.

You are correct to say that Simon-Peter did not consider himself to be the leader or spokesmsn for all the twelve, but Jesus did appoint him as such. Whether or not Simon-Peter was the first chosen Apostle is irrelevant. It was Simon bar Jonah that had his name changed to “rock” ( Peter, in English ). It was to Simon-Peter that Jesus said he will build His Church on. It was to Simon-Peter first that Jesus gave His great commission. It was Simon-Peter who led the infant Church, the first body of believers. It was Simon-Peter who exposed, and convicted Ananias, and there are many more instances of Simon-Peter’s primacy among the Apostles. And Paul recognized this, even though Paul did stand up to him on the matter of Judaization and corrected him.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Hey side note, I had a wedding last Sat and the groom was from your Church. So the brides side there was alot if People. So they asked me bride or groom so I thought of You and said I will sit on the grooms side, it does not matter. So I sat with the People from your Church. Guess what! They liked me too

Hi, Rinnie,
Glad to hear you felt OK about sitting with the Mormons at the wedding. (Was it friends of your son? Is he doing well?)

Actually Love the N.T. does present Peter as the spokeperson.

Lets start with this one for example.

Acts 2 Peter Lead Apostles in preaching in Pentecost.

That is an important chapter, indeed. It shows that Peter was familiar with the Psalms of David; he quoted from David’s Psalm about Christ being David’s descendant, and of Christ’s promised resurrection. He later, in his epistle, also quoted from Psalms as I have already noted on this thread–Psalm 118:22 which says:

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Remember what he said GOD MADE HIS CHOICE among YOU that through MY MOUTH

Yes, that is recorded in Acts 15:

Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

We note the importance of the Holy Ghost to “bare witness” to the Gentiles even as done to the Jews. This is what I have tried to emphasize on this thread–that the Holy Ghost bears witness that Jesus is the Christ, and through that witness our hearts are ready to be changed because we know our reliance on Him, the rock of salvation, and in Him we learn to trust.

We note also that Peter spoke, and Barnabas, and Paul, and James, on that occasion–and Peter did not say he was the spokesman and should be the only person allowed to talk.

Acts 2:41 Peter received the first converts.

Let’s assume you mean the first large group of converts. Agreed–he did that, in company with “the rest of the apostles” (v. 37) On that occasion, he emphasized repentance followed immediately by baptism for the remission of sins, which are very important sequential steps! (v. 38)

Acts 8:21 Peter excommunicated the first heretic Simon Magnus

No–Simon was not a member of the church, but wanted to be able to have the power to “give the Holy Ghost”, and Peter rebuked him and called him to repentance.

Acts 15 Peter led the first council in Jerusalem.

Yes, he did lead out. He was certainly the leader of the twelve.

Acts 1:13-26 Peter headed the meeting which elected Matthias to replace Judas

Yes, which shows the importance of there being twelve apostles in the church, just as Paul taught.

Acts 3:6-7 Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost.

Yes, in company with John. (We note that Peter said “Look on us.”)

John 21:17 Given Christ’s flock as chief shepherd

Jesus certainly told him to “feed my sheep.” (Whose sheep are they?–the Savior’s sheep–not Peter’s sheep. They are never referred to as Peter’s sheep. “Feed my sheep. Feed my lambs.” Here Peter had gone fishing instead of thinking about needing to begin sharing the message of the gospel, so of course the Savior needed to strongly remind him that he was an apostle, a witness of Jesus Christ, and needed to begin to act like one.)

Luke 22:32 Peters FAITH will STRENGHTEN his Brethren. Note the word YOU in greek it is the personal tense, not the Plural you like all you apostles.

Yes, Peter was reminded that as he was converted, he needed to strengthen his brethren. (But Peter still went fishing as we noted above, saying “I go a fishing” (John 21:3). I suppose he needed to still earn a living, but perhaps there is a lesson about priorities in that he didn’t catch any fish until the Savior came and helped them know where to cast their nets for fish.

As far as the keys. St Jerome who translated the text to Greek would never give a female ending to a masculine person. So conversations about Petros and Petra therefore are irrelevant. Aramaic is the NATIVE tongue for the IMMEDIATE DISCIPLES. And the word for Rock is Kepha.

Yes, and Peter was given the added name “Cephas” when the Savior first met him–not when he was given the “keys to the kingdom”.

And sorry Love Church to me is Jesus Christ. He is the RCC the Pillar of all Truth. But I still love ya

Thanks. I feel a love for you and your family, including your dad, also. I disagree that Jesus is “the church”. He certainly wants all to be a part of His congregation of believers, and wants all to “repent and be baptized” just as Peter taught needs to happen.

Have a good Sunday, peaceful in every way.

 

[adrift]

LOL! adrift -Did you realize that you linked to a muslim site it’s sole purpose of existance is to prove corruption of the Bible. You really can’t trust Islamic scholarship of the Bible.

Muslims like to say that the Gospel can not be Jesus’ Gospel [they think HE wrote it] because it was first written in Greek and not in Aramaic.

The site I linked to is for witnessing to Muslims about the truth of Christiainity and the Bible.

SO? I knew the site but I also knew it disputed your site. Just because they are Muslim does not meant they are wrong. The site you quote is inaccurate. It claims are unsubstantiated. We do not have that early of manuscripts. The earliest is from about the fourth century called Codex Sinaiticus . I am speaking of the New Testament. We do not have any of the original. The bible was not put into the present form for quite awhile. I am sure someone here can tell you when. This however does not have anything to do with the point that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Parker yes my Son is great. Daughter is going to be married 2 years already. I told her I am READY to be a grandmother anytime

We agree on pretty much of the scripture. Of course not the Church, but thats okay. ANd yes we are the Sheep of Christ not Peter. Sorry if I said that, my mistake.

And Peter actually translates into Rock, and Rock is Cephas or Kephas in Aramaic.

We know that the Apostles were fluent in scripture. In Matt16:19 Jesus is making reference to the rite of sucession found in Isaiah 22:20-22. In verses 15-28 Elakim is succeeding Shebna in the office of Prime Minister. Elakim is not a king but a Prime Minister under the King Liezekiah. Is. 36:1-5 22

The King of Davidiv dynasty had Prime Ministers who helped in governing them. 2 Sam 8:15-18 20:23-26

Jesus being the King of the David Luke 1:32-33 appoints St Peter as his first Prime Minister giving him the keys to the kingdom.

Pretty neat huh!

Hope you and your family are great, and as always in my prayers and good wishes