An Infinite regress into the past is flawed

[MindOverMatter]

An Infinite regress is meaningless. The reason being is because this present moment is the sum total of an infinite number of past causes and events. But there is no such thing as an “infinite number”, since the definition of a number is as such that it represents a countable series of a “finite whole”. To speak of “infinite sets” in terms of the past makes no sense since you are identifying the uncountable as a numerical figure. The fact that there are numbers of something proves that our universe is finite because in an infinite there is no such thing as an objective “number” such as 100 or a sum total of numbers. An infinite has no beginning or end from which to start “counting”; and therefore it is unreasonable to apply numbers to that which cannot be described by them. A series of something or a sum total of objects implies the finite. Therefore the present moment cannot be the sum total of an infinite past.

Secondly; one cannot apply a potential infinite to the past, and count backward continuously. We cannot speak of the present moment as zero, with the past and present extending from either end. We are coming from the past, and therefore the present and any future moments must be identified as being the sum total of the past. It makes no sense if it is preceded by an infinite, because by saying that we are preceded by an infinite we are identifying the past by a “number” of something, but there is no numbers in an infinite. How then are we here now? It makes sense to say that we have arrived from a finite number of past events because we can clearly identify the sum total. But what does it mean to say that we have arrived to the present moment from an infinite series of events? What does it mean for there to be a present “now”; the term “now”, implies a point preceded by numbers. No-matter what, the past will always reach a finite number. However we have come from an infinite sum total of past events. How does that make sense? What does it mean to say that something is old, if it wasn’t once new? The concept of an infinite regress is meaningless.

In short, a series of something is countable; describable. An Infinite is unidentifiable in terms of a number; becuase the infinite cannot be described in terms of finite numbers. Neither can you say that the past goes “on and on” becuase that would be placing a future tense to a past tense, when we are infact comming from the past. There is no maens by which we can hypothesis a infinite past in the first place. The universe is evidently made up of a number of things. Therefore, to apply an infinite to something that has numbers is a flawed notion. Infinites are purley mathematical concepts.

Any rebuttals?

 

[MindOverMatter]

The other problem is that; every possibility ought to have already happened and expended itself already. If the past isn’t actually infinite; then what does it mean to call it infinite in the first place?

 

[ribozyme]

Are you familiar with the Guth, Borde, Vilenkin theorem?

 

[JimG]

I am really not sure if any of what you describe really apples.

When working with numbers, infinite series are certainly possible, and can go both forwards and backwards.

There is an infinite series of positive integers, beginning with zero, and extending without limit: 0,1,2,3,4…etc. The series is infinite because at any supposed stopping point you can always just add one.

The same applies for the infinite series of negative numbers, -1, -2, -3, etc, to infinity in a negative direction. (Of course, the infinite series of all integers, both positive and negative, extends in both directions without limit or starting point.)

Also, geometrically, every line, from the shortest to the longest, contains an infinite number of points.

And an electromagentic field has a value at every point in space, meaning it has a potentially infinite set of values–one reason that it is proving difficult if not impossible to unify it with quantum theory.

So I don’t see any problem with infinite series, either forwards or backwards.

Now, it may be that an infinite regress of causation is not possible. But even then, I think the usual argument for the existence of God from this direction has to do with the impossibility of an infinite series of immediate causes, not an infinite series of temporal causes.

 

[MindOverMatter]

The same applies for the infinite series of negative numbers, -1, -2, -3, etc, to infinity in a negative direction. (Of course, the infinite series of all integers, both positive and negative, extends in both directions without limit or starting point.).

The problem lies in your subjective sense of the “present” as an observor, which you represent as “0”, and then you count backward as if time flows backward. There is no zero, and as soon as you remove it, your integer arguement falls apart. Ever heard of the fourth demension? In the universe, there are no “negative numbers”; there are only positives numbers. An infinite regress into the past would imply an infinity of positives. If there are an infinite series before this event in time, then how have we arrived at this event. But the problem is, i cannot apply a starting point to an infinite time ago because there is no such thing as an infinite time ago. Therefore i cannot say that there is an infinite series of events in the past to begin with, becuase in order for me to know that, i would have to transgress an infinite, which is impossible. I don’t see how reality could achieve it.

I have a feeling that this arguement won’t stand up very well, but id like to see you reply.

And an electromagentic field has a value at every point in space, meaning it has a potentially infinite set of values–one reason that it is proving difficult if not impossible to unify it with quantum theory. .

Very Interesting. Explain this a bit more please.

 

[JimG]

My reply did not really deal with the possibility of time flowing backward, and only tangentially with the possibility of an infinite series of efficient causes. Rather, I was concerned with this statement:

But there is no such thing as an “infinite number”, since the definition of a number is as such that it represents a countable series of a “finite whole”.

There are obviously infinite numbers, and mathematics deals with them all the time.

The series of integers is infinite. The number of points on a line is infinite. The number of points in a plane and in a cube is infinite. (Not only that, but those infinities are exactly equal. That is, there as many points on a line as there are in a plane. A first level infinity.) The value of pi has an infinite number of non-repeating numbers following the decimal point.

And I wouldn’t say that in the universe, there are only positive numbers. If I recall correctly, some elementary particles have positive “spin,” others have negative spin. Some have positive charge, others have negative charge. Antimatter particles are the negative of matter particles. An a/c current consists of a sine wave alternating between positive and negative.

So I’m not sure that arguing against infinities or negative numbers is of any use. Your main point seems to be, I think, that an infinite temporal series of efficient causes is not possible. That may be true, although I’m not convinced that it is.