An interesting observation about converts and the Extraordinary Form Mass

[OraLabora]

I had an opportunity to attend an EF Mass about an hour and a half from where I now live; it was in a small church, and they “sang” Gregorian chant. Having been in a schola (when I was in college seminary) which cut a record (vinyl - CDs had not been invented), I know how chant is to be done; the choir in that parish slaughtered the chant - they could not even all sing on key and had not the faintest idea of the dynamics of chant.

Apparently at the one EF Mass in the largest city nearby to me, this is also the case. I have not heard them but a fellow chorister and former choirmaster and head of the Gregorian Institute of Canada mentioned it.

if not vast majority of Masses in the EF prior to Vatican 2 were what we then referred to as Low Masses - no music.

Or popular local hymns just before and just after Mass. In…wait for it…the vernacular.

 

[Maximian]

I think for some, a few, Traditionalists, it’s all about the Mass, the Mass, and the Mass.

It is all about the Mass. The entire moral, social and salvific teaching of the Church flows from the Mass.

Only when people stop thinking of the Mass as an add-on do they truly enter Catholic truth.

 

[JimG]

It seems odd that the OF Mass can be licitly said in Latin, but the EF Mass cannot be said in English or other vernacular.

 

[otjm]

Ahhhh… we don’t need another Fukushima.

 

[Jen95]

otjm:

I had an opportunity to attend an EF Mass about an hour and a half from where I now live; it was in a small church, and they “sang” Gregorian chant. Having been in a schola (when I was in college seminary) which cut a record (vinyl - CDs had not been invented), I know how chant is to be done; the choir in that parish slaughtered the chant - they could not even all sing on key and had not the faintest idea of the dynamics of chant.

Apparently at the one EF Mass in the largest city nearby to me, this is also the case. I have not heard them but a fellow chorister and former choirmaster and head of the Gregorian Institute of Canada mentioned it.

if not vast majority of Masses in the EF prior to Vatican 2 were what we then referred to as Low Masses - no music.

Or popular local hymns just before and just after Mass. In…wait for it…the vernacular.

I hate it when you two point to a “bad example” of chant and imply that that must be the way it is everywhere.
Some musicians and choirs, although not perfect, are competent and trying to follow the directives of Vatican II.
I think you are uncharitable in your criticism of some parishes.

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

Funny, when I attend FSSP I don’t think I’m being cheated out of liturgical heritage.

Then you should consider yourself blessed, as the FSSP have about 45 parishes in the US out of a total of some 17,000+/-. And that is not to denigrate the FSSP; they are a very small community overall.

I do consider myself blessed that I am able to attend a nearby FSSP, and that I can have an inkling of how Holy Mother Church worshipped for centuries, before the 1960s “youthquake” mentality took over the liturgy, and like a pitbull, never let go.

 

[Maximian]

I hate it when you two point to a “bad example” of chant and imply that that must be the way it is everywhere.
Some musicians and choirs, although not perfect, are competent and trying to follow the directives of Vatican II.
I think you are uncharitable in your criticism of some parishes.

Fully agree. And we are in this situation because the scholas, some of them centuries old, were systematically disbanded in the name of encouraging “active participation “ by the lay congregation. Now we have to restart from scratch.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Your willingness to travel that long speaks loudly of your desire to attend the EF,

To be fair, I only do it a handful of times a year. Normally I will attend whatever Mass is the most convenient for me based on its location, start time, and whatever else is going on.

I think it’s also helpful to note why I sometimes attend EF. The main reason is that sometimes I want to worship like my grandparents and ancestors did, and like my parents did pre-Vatican II. I was curious about Latin Mass since I was a child because my parents, aunts and uncles would talk about it and get all excited when an OF Mass would have some element like receiving kneeling at an altar rail. It seemed unfair that I didn’t get to see it, but my mother emphasized that we were no longer allowed to have it (this was during the time it was prohibited and the only ones having it were disobedient rogue priests getting reprimanded by the Church). So when I learned as an adult returning to active practice that now there were TLMs and the Pope said it was okay to go, I was there with bells on. It also helped that I had four years of high school Latin, and while I won’t be holding a conversation in it any time soon, I can read it functionally and knew all the basic Church Latin phrases like “Dominus vobiscum” and that I have generally happy memories and associations with Latin in general.

The above to me is a more reasonable basis for an interest in the Latin Mass than some form of “the pomp and ritual blew me away.”

 

[DaveBj]

Most converts from Evangelical Protestantism become Catholic not because they are attracted to the Mass (either OF or EF), but because they do extensive research and study, and come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is THE Church that Jesus Christ Himself founded and intends to be His Church.

That’s my story in a very small nutshell.

Back on topic, we have a reverent OF tradition at our parish, and other reverent OF options in the county, and that’s good enough for me. I like to be able to hear and understand what’s going on, and I like to contribute now and then by speaking the responses. I would attend a nearby EF, if the officiant were miked, and if I had a parallel bi-lingual script to follow.

D

 

[OraLabora]

Fully agree. And we are in this situation because the scholas, some of them centuries old, were systematically disbanded in the name of encouraging “active participation “ by the lay congregation. Now we have to restart from scratch.

The Vatican tried to fix that with the Graduale Simplex that had simpler chants based somewhat on the antiphons of the Divine Office. It was intended for less skilled parish choirs. And there are still excellent Gregorian scholas for both the EF and OF. Paris, for example, has an excellent one. Many abbeys as well, and of course Solesmes itself which does Gregorian chant in the OF.

The Graduale Simplex never really caught on unfortunately. I do have a copy collecting dust on my bookshelf. It came in handy when creating my own Nocturnale for the Office of Readings, as Ordo Cantus Officii sourced a few antiphons from it. Now the 2015 version of the Ordo has pretty much wiped out my Nocturnale, and some of the new antiphon sources are obscure and hard to find. I call it the Ordo Non Cantus Officii because it seems to put unnecessarily complicated obstacles in the way of people who want to chant the Liturgy of the Hours. Though to be fair, the day hours, Sundays, Feasts and Solemnities are now available in Les Heures Grégoriennes, and Antiphonale Romanum I and II (the latter for Lauds and Vespers only of Sundays, feasts and solemnities).

I hate it when you two point to a “bad example” of chant and imply that that must be the way it is everywhere.

It isn’t, but the places that do it right are few and far between. There are a few competent scholas; our own for instance, but we don’t try to aim above our level. We strive to improve gradually, but we don’t do, in public, pieces that are beyond our skills. We’ve been burned more than once with that.

Some musicians and choirs, although not perfect, are competent and trying to follow the directives of Vatican II.

That’s what we are trying to do. We use, as inspiration, the local Benedictines who who do the Mass, Lauds and Vespers in Gregorian chant (Latin+Greek), entirely in the Ordinary Form (Lauds and Vespers follow a Benedictine schema psalm schema, not that of the Liturgy of the Hours but the rest, i.e. collects, hymns, etc, are the mostly identical to the LOTH).

The point is that murdered Gregorian chant sounds awful. And I think the average rural parish would find all but the simpler settings of the ordinary to be beyond their reach. A quick perusal of the Graduale Romanum in both pre- and post-Conciliar forms should be enough to convince…

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

Some musicians and choirs, although not perfect, are competent and trying to follow the directives of Vatican II.

The point is that murdered Gregorian chant sounds awful. And I think the average rural parish would find all but the simpler settings of the ordinary to be beyond their reach. A quick perusal of the Graduale Romanum in both pre- and post-Conciliar forms should be enough to convince…

“Murdered” Gregorian chant sounds awful?
Are the choirs offering praise and worship to you, OraLabora?
I wonder how it sounds to God and the angels who attend every Mass. Let’s hope they are more charitable than you are.

 

[OraLabora]

“Murdered” Gregorian chant sounds awful?
Are the choirs offering praise and worship to you, OraLabora?
I wonder how it sounds to God and the angels who attend every Mass. Let’s hope they are more charitable than you are.

. . . .

There’s nothing wrong with doing your best, and sticking to your skill level.

I know that when the pandemic is over, our schola will sound awful after a year+ of not being able to sing and rehearse. Unity of voices is extremely important in Gregorian chant and that comes with a LOT of practice, and working together as a choir… and dare I say as a fraternity.

We will no doubt have a LOT of rehearsals before inflicting ourselves on the unsuspecting faithful in the pews. Meanwhile the non-Gregorian choirs will, I’m sure, do their best to provide music for Mass.

 

[otjm]

The above to me is a more reasonable basis for an interest in the Latin Mass than some form of “the pomp and ritual blew me away.”

My mother, a farm girl, had a phrase: “To each his own said the old lady as she kissed the cow”. There is nothing wrong with your reasons for wanting to attend; as far as I am concerned, there is nothing wrong with the feeling of being blown away. However, as an observation, there seemed to be a period of time where priests aying the EF would be following what we (bck then) called the Solemn High Mass - priest, deacon and sub deacon, master of ceremonies, thurifer, altar boys, and likely candle bearers. My observation (which might offend some) was that it was occurring every rainy Tuesday. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, our parish had a Solemn High Mass on Christmas and if I recall (and it is hazy), Easter. As I ahve heard nothing of it for several years, I assume it has settled down since then.

We had Low Masses on Sunday - no music - and one High Mass with choir; but no incense. And that was the form for every Sunday and feast day, except Christmas (and maybe Easter). With a good to excellent choir, it is impressive.

 

[otjm]

I hate it when you two point to a “bad example” of chant and imply that that must be the way it is everywhere.
Some musicians and choirs, although not perfect, are competent and trying to follow the directives of Vatican II.

Neither of us have implied that “It must be this way everywhere”. Not now, and not in any of the threads in the past. You are reading in any “implication”, as it was not made.

I think you are uncharitable in your criticism of some parishes.

I was taught that if you are going to do something, do it right. Within the field of music and music directors it is fairly well acknowledged that there is a serious lack of understanding and knowledge of Gregorian chant - meaning, most music directors have no training in it, and training is not widely available, or even reasonably available.

When I was in grade school (Catholic school) we had a sister who was musically trained, and we sang for I have no clue how many funerals - lots. We were not near the level of a group capable of touring, but we were trained (and she directed) in the dynamics of how chant should be sung. If you want an example of a children’s choir capable of that top level, there is one at the cathedral in Salt Lake - and they have toured Europe. There is good - we were - and there is great - those kids are - and then there is less than good. That is simply a fact. I have said nothing to indicate that “it is everywhere”.

I think you are uncharitable in your criticism of some parishes.

Facts are facts. You take it as a lack of charity. If a priest saying the EF was sloppy in following the rubrics, that is not an indictment of any other parish where the EF is said. If a choir cannot even sing on key, that is not an indictment of other choirs, but it does not excuse poor singing. One of the big criticisms we get in these threads are concerning priests saying the OF sloppily - and if they are sloppy, then that criticism is thoroughly justified.

I can appreciate the Mass said with reverence, whether it is the OF or the EF. I can appreciate the music of either the OF or the EF done correctly. We are wandering off topic, but I find that music done poorly detracts from the experience of the Mass, in either Form.

 

[otjm]

“Murdered” Gregorian chant sounds awful?
Are the choirs offering praise and worship to you, OraLabora?
I wonder how it sounds to God and the angels who attend every Mass. Let’s hope they are more charitable than you are.

:You attend an FSSP parish, and as this is their focus, I seriously doubt that you have anything less than a very adequate choir; you appear to have no idea how blessed you are in that.

However, your drift off the issue - competent singing, is an uncharitable comment when you get into the intent of the singers - neither Ora Labora nor I have challenged anyone in their intent. Nor, it appears, have you had to endure a choir that can’t collectively carry a not in a washtub. Those singing in that choir may be praising God with their best effort; but to anyone in the rest of the church who has any sense of music, it is beyond distracting.

And the same can be said for a priest who is sloppy with the rubrics; he may not intend to be sloppy; he may be a very holy person, but sloppy is still sloppy - and distracting to anyone who knows the difference.

 

[Peeps]

The point is that murdered Gregorian chant sounds awful. And I think the average rural parish would find all but the simpler settings of the ordinary to be beyond their reach.

Not just the average rural parish, but parishes in many settings in the U.S.

Music education in the schools is very haphazard, and teaching children and teens to sing properly is not a priority for many music teachers.

Most of us in the U.S. learn to sing by imitating our favorite “stars.” I kinda think that Gregorian chant sung in the style of Taylor Swift or Sia would be kinda jarring. But that’s how kids learn to sing–IF they learn to sing. Most of us are happier just listening, and we claim that we can’t sing.

And as for learning how to read notes–well, trying to convince someone that they can do this is like trying to convince them that they can learn to ice dance! A few brave souls try and often find that yes, they CAN learn! But most people won’t even try.

I wish that schools and families would get back to learning correct singing techniques and music reading–I think this would probably create interest in styles of music like chant, polyphony, classical music, four-part hymn singing (Holy God We Praise Thy Name sounds so much more awesome when all four parts are sung!). I also think this kind of education would result in better hymns and sacred music being written.