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BenQ

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I will preface my question with some background on me. I was raised the son of a Protestant Army Chaplain. At the age of 18 I had doubts in Christianity, the Bible, and God in general. My dad encouraged me to seek answers. Whenever I asked him a question he answered them but never guided me to make a decision regarding my ultimate faith. After a year or so of searching my Christian faith was stronger than it had ever been. I now had answers to most of my questions. Fast forward about 8 years and I’m in love with a Catholic woman. We talked about the differences in religion and after more than a year she decided that if we got married then we would raise our family in a non-denominational Christian church. Now we are engaged and she is having second thoughts. In an attempt to believe in the RC faith I read “Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic.” The book only created more questions. I’ll start with #1 and I’m sure there will be more threads to come.

My belief is that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins. Does purgatory take away from the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? If we need to be cleansed of our sins before we get into heaven, then why did Jesus die on the corss to cleanse us of our sins?

John 6: 28-29 says, "Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

To me, that says that the only thing we must do is to believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Please respond.
 
To me, that says that the only thing we must do is to believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Please respond.
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That is exactly right. But what does it mean to believe in Jesus in Lord and Savior? Satan acknowledges this fact–in other word he believes. But, here’s what Jesus means: to believe in Him in as Savior is to put your faith in Him alone for your salvation. To believe in Him as Lord means to be obedient to Him. It’s not a one time event, but it means a conversion of the rest of your life and abiding in the Lord’s goodness, lest we be cut off. Hope that helps 🙂
 
Welcome to the forums!

May I suggest that, in addition to the forums, you get yourself a copy of the Cateshism of the Catholic Church?

One of the neat things about the Church is that Her teaching aren’t secret… they’re publish in a big green book for the world to read.

I’m not trying to discourage you posting here. I just find that it’s nice to get the actual Church’s teaching on a subject before I read people’s interpretations of it here.
 
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BenQ:
My belief is that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins. Does purgatory take away from the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? If we need to be cleansed of our sins before we get into heaven, then why did Jesus die on the corss to cleanse us of our sins?
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Sorry, forgot about this part. Purgatory is how we are transfigured after death. Our sins are forgiven, but often we are still attached to them. Almost everyone has their pet little sins they don’t want to give up. We are truly made clean by Christ. Purgatory is only possible because of the merits of Christ–it is how those merits are applied.

St. Paul speaks of a purifying fire we will experience after death (1 cor. 3:15) 👍
 
A couple of points.

To believe in Christ includes submitting to the teaching and to the authority of the Church He founded.

And when you are in heaven, will you still sin? You still sin here on earth. What will be different about you in heaven? That change (affected by God, not by you) is what we call purgatory.
 
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Genesis315:
That is exactly right. But what does it mean to believe in Jesus in Lord and Savior? Satan acknowledges this fact–in other word he believes. But, here’s what Jesus means: to believe in Him in as Savior is to put your faith in Him alone for your salvation. To believe in Him as Lord means to be obedient to Him. It’s not a one time event, but it means a conversion of the rest of your life and abiding in the Lord’s goodness, lest we be cut off. Hope that helps 🙂
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VociMike:
A couple of points.

To believe in Christ includes submitting to the teaching and to the authority of the Church He founded.

And when you are in heaven, will you still sin? You still sin here on earth. What will be different about you in heaven? That change (affected by God, not by you) is what we call purgatory.
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I completely agree that to “believe” means to repent your sins and turn away from them. But it sounds as if you’re saying the only time a person truly believes is after purgatory because that is the only time they are 100% free of sins. Does that mean that nobody on Earth truly believes? If so, then none of us are worthy of salvation.
 
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Timidity:
Well, none of us are. That’s what grace is all about.
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Let me correct myself, I was on the phone when I wrote that. I know we’re not worthy…I meant to say that none of us is gauranteed salvation. The only thing that saves/changes us is Purgatory? That takes away from what Jesus did on the cross.
 
You are misunderstanding Purgatory. First, realize that it is a place ONLY for those who will ultimately end up in heaven. Look at it this way. The Bible in Revelations tells us that “nothing unclean shall enter the kingdom of heaven.” There are two ways this can be true. First is the view brought forth by Luther. Our souls will always be tainted (I believe he used dung in his metaphor) but Jesus’ grace will be like snow covering over the dung. Therefore God the Father will never see our offenses. That’s all well and good, but it’s a lie and deceptive. The older and more traditional view of the church is that we truly will be transformed and perfected through Christ’s grace. In Purgatory you will be purged of all desire for sin (concupiscence). After that time you will be fit for Heaven.

I don’t see how being purged later shows an incompletion of faith. Perhaps part of the problem is that Protestants don’t stress developing faith so much as just getting in that first act of faith.

Anyways, welcome to the forums and continue to ask questions. The tracts at the catholic.com homepage are very helpful if you haven’t read them yet.
 
No, the only thing/person that saves us is Jesus. He died for our sins. But the EFFECT of the sin remains. If I have a cancerous skin lesion, encapsulated, the surgeon can completely remove it, and I will be free of that cancer. . .BUT I will still have a wound, won’t I? That wound must be dealt with–sutured, grafted, whatever–before my body, though free of cancer, can be “healed” fully.

Nothing impure can enter heaven, Scripture tells us, also that many will be saved, but only through a purifying fire. Remember, purgatory isn’t eternal or sempiternal, like heaven or hell. The people in purgatory ARE SAVED BY JESUS. . .these people ARE GOING TO HEAVEN. . .but in order to be fully healed and fully purified, they need purgatory.
 
You might want to spend some time on the Catholic Answers main page: catholic.com. Just type the word “purgatory” into the search box for many articles on the subject, for example, this one.

Purgatory has nothing to do with forgiveness of sins, and everything to do with purification, since nothing imperfect can enter heaven.

Everyone in purgatory is certain of their salvation. They wouldn’t be there if they weren’t saved.

CS Lewis once speculated that everyone in purgatory could simply enter heaven whenever they wished, but instead of entering immediately, they say thanks, but I’d like to clean up first and put on my good wedding garments.
 
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BenQ:
My belief is that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins. Does purgatory take away from the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? If we need to be cleansed of our sins before we get into heaven, then why did Jesus die on the corss to cleanse us of our sins?
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By that logic, everyone on earth would have been sinless for the past 2000 years (unless you agree with the five-point Calvinists that Christ only died for certain people–but then they would have always been sinless, which of course the Calvinists don’t say!).
To me, that says that the only thing we must do is to believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Please respond.
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But that’s different from what you said above. You seemed to be implying above that Jesus’ death cleanses us from our sins without any action on our part. Now you’re saying that when we believe we are cleansed? So we are totally sinless from the time we believe? Believers have no sinful thoughts, words, or deeds?

What I’m trying to get you to see is that justification by faith, which receives the grace made available to us by Christ’s atoning death, is about the *forgiveness *of our sins. Becoming sinless is a long, painful process on earth. The doctrine of purgatory says that it is completed after death. And something like that must be true, or else we would remain sinful for all eternity. Maybe it happens in an instant when we die. Maybe (but I think this is unlikely) it doesn’t involve any pain or discomfort. But there must be some kind of transformation to get us from forgiven sinners to glorified saints.

I’m not a Catholic, BTW. I don’t think Purgatory should be a dogma of the Church, because I don’t find it taught in Scripture (in other than very enigmatic hints–see 1 Cor. 3) and because the early Christians do not seem to have regarded it as more than a probable opinion. I also reject the traditional Catholic teaching that Purgatory involves the payment of a debt of justice (I don’t think Catholics have to express it that way nowadays, but I could be wrong). And of course I reject the common medieval picture of Purgatory as a kind of temporary Hell (I don’t know any Catholics who see Purgatory that way).

For a good Protestant take on Purgatory, I recommend the article “Purgatory for Everyone” by Jerry Walls, a Methodist theologian. He also wrote about Purgatory in his book *Heaven: The Logic of Eternal Joy, *and I believe he’s writing a whole book on the subject.

Edwin
 
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BenQ:
…I read “Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic.” The book only created more questions. I’ll start with #1 and I’m sure there will be more threads to come.

My belief is that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins. Does purgatory take away from the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? If we need to be cleansed of our sins before we get into heaven, then why did Jesus die on the corss to cleanse us of our sins?
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I read that book also, and I’m very interested to read your reaction to it.

On the question about purgatory taking away from the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion, I think rather it is a place or state where the merits of Christ are applied to our souls. The Bible speaks of robes “washed in the blood of the Lamb”, and I think of Purgatory as this final cleansing before entering heaven. At the crucifixion, Jesus shed all His blood for us. Without the crucifixion, there would be no cleansing of sin and therefore no purgatory.
 
Can you point me to where it says we will only be saved through a purifying fire?
 
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gardenswithkids:
I read that book also, and I’m very interested to read your reaction to it.
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My reaction would take a while and I have economics homework to get to. However, the author’s fundamentalist upbringing is by no means how I was raised. I told my mother about the book and she was in shock that a Christian denomination would be so ill willed toward Catholics.
 
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BenQ:
My reaction would take a while and I have economics homework to get to. However, the author’s fundamentalist upbringing is by no means how I was raised. I told my mother about the book and she was in shock that a Christian denomination would be so ill willed toward Catholics.
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Thanks. As you post your questions, I suspect I’ll learn more. I found it interesting that you said the book “only caused more questions” in your original post. I thought about giving it to a fundamentalist extended family member who believes horrible things about the Catholic Church. Seeing as your engaged to a Catholic woman and corresponding with cordially with us here, you obviously don’t fall into that same catagory.🙂
 
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BenQ:
My belief is that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins. Does purgatory take away from the purpose of Christ’s crucifixion? If we need to be cleansed of our sins before we get into heaven, then why did Jesus die on the corss to cleanse us of our sins?
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There is a fine line that is a mile wide between the Protestant and Catholic understanding of what Christ did on the cross. In other words, both sides often think they mean the same thing when they say Jesus “died for our sins”, but the actual understanding is so far apart, that it results in most of the rest of the misunderstandings between Catholics and Protestants regarding Purgatory, Indulgences, merits, role of Mary and Saints, value and necessity of Holy Communion, and numerous Biblical passages.

Protestants generally view what Christ did on the cross as a substitutionary punishment, and all those who merely “believe” that He did this for them will receive the benefit thereof. They do not believe any other “work” besides this belief is necessary for salvation, and that any “works” are only symbolic of our faith. They further see no purpose to purgatory, since they think Christ suffered it all for us, and indulgences are therefore also unnecessary, invented along with confession to keep control of the population. Etc. etc. They do not believe in salvation by our participation.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church has always believed that Christ’s death on the cross was a substitutionary atonement, a propitiation to make up for all sins, to offset the evil by a greater good.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace,

So through His merits He atoned. He did not merely suffer our penalty for us. He appeased His Father and merited all graces for us.

The purpose for this was to obtain grace for our justification and sanctification.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and justice, and sanctification, and redemption:

He purchased our “redemption”, but “salvation” is only gained by applying the graces of that redemption through good works of penance and holy desire

Acts 26:20 … and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the rational milk without guile, that thereby you may grow unto salvation:

2 Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Romans 13:11 And that knowing the season; that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, … with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

We must participate in our salvation by putting forth effort to overcome ourselves and receive and apply the fruits of the redemption to our soul.

2 Peter 2:19 … For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave.

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good.

Apocalypse 2:26 And he that shall overcome, and keep my works unto the end, I will give him power over the nations.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

We must “work our way” to the heaven that Christ opened for us. Not works “of the law”, but the works that have been prepared for us.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Matthew 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. …

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

Scripture overwhelmingly supports the Catholic perspective, but many Protestants have prejudiced filters over their hearts that they have been trained into regarding most scriptures.

hurst
 
Tantum ergo:
Here you are: 1 Corinthians 3: 15.

Also Zacharias 13: 9.
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I’ve only got time for Zech right now.

“…In the whole land,” declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
Code: 
9 This third I will bring into the fire;..."
My interpretation of this scripture is that it’s talking about Israel. The Lord says that he will strike doen 2/3 of the people and 1/3 will be left. Then he will take them into the “fire” for purification. It’s my understanding that these 1/3 will be alive and left on the land. Does that mean they will go to purgatory without dying?

I will address 1 Cor and the previous post tomorrow after school.
 
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