An outsider's analogy for praying to saints

[Mike_from_NJ]

My apologies if this isn’t the best category for this thread.

I have no dog in the fight for the question of praying to saints, but it does seem odd (as an outsider) to me. Wise people (in business, politics, social life) surround themselves with others they can trust to navigate difficult questions. Why does a person in everyday life consult or take advice from others? It’s because he may not know all of the facts. She realizes another set of eyes, another perspective, may grant more insight. He is fallible and knows he could be wrong. She simply can’t handle the deluge of requests and has a staff to sort out the most important ones.

God is said to have perfect knowledge, so there’s nothing another could say that would enlighten him. No advice would correct an error of God’s as he is said to be without error. There is no limit to how many people he could answer, so a buffer of others to filter it down is not needed.

Again, I have no dog in the fight; but when I saw an item in the memes thread that said something like God saying “My mother has told me good things about you” it would seem any reasoning to show God taking advantage of saints to consult with him has to limit God in some way.

 

[Dlee]

My understanding is that the saints are praying for us, just as I would offer prayers for my friends and families. I don’t see God as consulting the saints for their opinions. Again, just additional prayers being offered on our behalf.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Would God do anything different if the saints were not praying for the one who prayed?

 

[Dorothy]

When I ask for an intercession of a saint I believe that I am also honoring the many graces that the Lord gave them to reach such sanctity. Of course, they had to cooperate with that grace, and if I apply myself I can do the same thing. God’s grace is available to all!

We are family!

 

[Toolmaker]

There’s way to much here to respond to every complaint you have so I will try to sum up the way I feel about all your points.

Simply put (IMO) Many of us who take our faith seriously are shifting to the right because it is the right that most closely reflects our faith. Faith 1st, politics 2nd.

If we expect to have a church to be part of We can no longer be silent about what’s happening right here in America, never mind the rest of the world. The forces of the left are not silent about their intentions to eradicate the church and most of our beliefs.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

When I ask for an intercession of a saint I believe that I am also honoring the many graces that the Lord gave them to reach such sanctity. Of course, they had to cooperate with that grace, and if I apply myself I can do the same thing. God’s grace is available to all!

We are family!

While it always good to honor those who have done good, praying to saints seems to be regarded as more than just honoring or courtesy.

This link from Catholic Answers suggests that praying to saints is more efficacious as the person directly asking God is more righteous than someone on Earth praying directly to God:

Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

To me that suggests that God is more likely to answer in the positive to a prayer based on who is asking, which suggests a limitation in God in some way as I described in my first post.

 

[Toolmaker]

Thank you for your thoughtful question.

One of the reasons many come into the faith is precisely because they just don’t have all the answers. Faith helps us get past that awareness.

Faith is a gift of grace from God. If one had all the answers to questions like this one would be on an equal footing with God.

Praying to saints works. There are many examples of it working. One doesn’t need to know how it works for it to work. I don’t know how penicillin works yet it does.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

To me that suggests that God is more likely to answer in the positive to a prayer based on who is asking, which suggests a limitation in God in some way as I described in my first post.

I’m not getting how it’s a “limitation” in God if he chooses to respond more positively to a prayer made by Padre Pio, Moses, or Mother Mary than to a prayer made by me. God could also choose to respond more positively to my prayer. Or respond the same way to both prayers.

Asking a saint’s intercesson is not some guarantee that God will sit up and take notice. It’s just asking for some well-positioned friends to be on your side. God will do what God wills, regardless.

Those who complain about people praying to saints are missing the community or friendly aspect of doing this, as well as the fact that the person on earth praying generally would like to emulate the heroism of the saint or receive the same graces that the saint had. It’s not all about getting 1000 saints in your corner so God will hear your prayer.

 

[Dorothy]

I am aware that God has no limits. He is omnipotent.

There is another article in that section you referred to. In fact there are several, but the one that attracted me was “How to defend the Intercession of the Saints.”

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I’m not getting how it’s a “limitation” in God if he chooses to respond more positively to a prayer made by Padre Pio, Moses, or Mother Mary than to a prayer made by me. God could also choose to respond more positively to my prayer. Or respond the same way to both prayers.

If God would respond A to a prayer someone made directly to him, and B to a prayer made to a saint who then went to God then this demonstrates that the saint presented God with something that he was not aware of (thus showing he does not have perfect knowledge).

Asking a saint’s intercesson is not some guarantee that God will sit up and take notice. It’s just asking for some well-positioned friends to be on your side.

I never in any way noted that there was a guarantee that God would answer differently, but it is suggested that it would increase the odds of a change in response (that it would be more efficacious).

God will do what God wills, regardless.

In this are you saying that God will always answer A to a prayer where it’s directly to him or through a saint? If so, then there would be no need to pray to saints. If not, then as I stated above it shows saints can alter God’s mind as to how a prayer is to be answered.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I am aware that God has no limits. He is omnipotent.

There is another article in that section you referred to. In fact there are several, but the one that attracted me was “How to defend the Intercession of the Saints.”

Have you rad the article in question. It’s broken down into 6 sections, 5 of which are not relevant here (things like scriptural objections or logistical issues). I’m already accepting for the sake of argument that one can pray to saints and that they can commune with God in one’s favor. Section 3 makes an analogy that if you work for someone and have a problem you wouldn’t take it to the mailroom when you can ask the CEO directly. When it says “For if Catholics should not ask those in heaven for their prayers since we can go straight to Jesus, then no Christian on earth should ask a fellow believer for his prayers,” it’s boiled down to if we don’t ask another to pray for us then there is no need to ask another to pray for us – a tautology. If having others pray for you increases the odds of a desired response to prayer, then this suggests God will change his mind and actions based on information and/or suggestions others give to him. This shows God as not having perfect knowledge.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If God would respond A to a prayer someone made directly to him, and B to a prayer made to a saint who then went to God then this demonstrates that the saint presented God with something that he was not aware of (thus showing he does not have perfect knowledge).

I’m sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me, because I don’t understand how you’re assuming God is making a choice based on his “awareness” of something.

He’s God. If he wants to respond he will. If he doesn’t want to respond, he won’t. He doesn’t get some additional knowledge from a saint making a prayer. I’m baffled as to how somebody could even come up with that thought. I don’t mean to be rude, i’m just truly baffled.

God’s not some boss who’s making a decision based on the information his direct reports bring to him.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I’m sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me, because I don’t understand how you’re assuming God is making a choice based on his “awareness” of something.

If it’s not an information gap then why would a prayer to a saint be potentially more efficacious than one made directly to God?

He’s God. If he wants to respond he will. If he doesn’t want to respond, he won’t. He doesn’t get some additional knowledge from a saint making a prayer. I’m baffled as to how somebody could even come up with that thought. I don’t mean to be rude, i’m just truly baffled.

I think once we get things pegged down we’ll be able to communicate better on this. I don’t know if you saw my question to you in the previous post. Yes or no, can a prayer made by a saint for someone be more efficacious than one made by that same person directly?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It can be more efficacious, and it also might not be more efficacious. It depends on your definition of “efficacious”.

If you mean “efficacious” in benefiting you in some way, such as you grow in holiness, you learn to pray better, you participate more fully in the community of believers, you feel less lonely when you pray, you unite yourself with those who are closer to God than you are right now (since they’re in Heaven enjoying the Beatific Vision), then praying with the saint is more efficacious than praying all by yourself.

If you mean “efficacious” in the sense that you’re more likely to get the thing you prayed for, then it’s not necessarily more efficacious to pray with a saint than by yourself.

Instead of thinking “saint”, think of having a nice devout grandmother who lives a very holy life, Mass every day, always helping people and doing charity work, always wise and kind. If you wanted to go to God with some intention, then it would be natural to ask your Grandma to pray for you, or for you both to pray together. You’re going to benefit from that activity even if God doesn’t give you what you want, because you had special close prayer time with God and your grandmother, and Jesus encouraged us to pray in community (“wherever 2 or more are gathered in my name…”)

Now let’s suppose you don’t have such a grandmother. Perhaps she died, perhaps she wasn’t religious. In any event, here you are all alone and you want to pray. Wouldn’t it make sense to turn to your friends in heaven, your favorite saints? They are great company. And good at praying. So you ask them to pray for you, and you pray together. You benefit from this whether you get what you’re praying for or not.

The point of prayer is not “getting something”. The point of prayer is talking to God.

 

[MNathaniel]

God is said to have perfect knowledge, so there’s nothing another could say that would enlighten him.

I mean, you can apply this across the board though. God doesn’t need anything from us. Not. One. Thing. From. One of us.

Not even our affection. Nothing. God is utterly complete in Himself: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So why would you stop at questioning why God permits saints to tell Him things He already knows? Why don’t you go all the way to asking why God would bother creating any creation at all?

The point is that God is overflowing with superabundant love. He creates us not to benefit Himself, but to benefit us. And He allows us to participate with Him in the good things He does for us: in the graces He gives us and so on. He allows us to participate on our small, unnecessary level, in helping each other – even when it’s like a small child asking his father for $5 so the child can buy his father a $5 gift (from the father’s own store, at that). The father gives the child the dignity of participating in the act of gift-giving, and the dignity of the child’s intention being allowed to manifest in some way and really mean something. And God allows us, His tiny creation, the dignity of participating in the act of gift-giving (to each other and back to Him), giving us the dignity of allowing our intentions to be manifested in some outward way and really mean something, really affect something. Even though He’s ultimately the Actor in the end (actor in the sense of, the one who engages in the action); He allows us to participate with Him in His action – including by advocating for each other to Him, and passing Him requests He already knows about, adding our own affections and intentions to it.

Does that make sense?

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I’m going to avoid the meaning of “efficacious” since that’s a whole other messy ball of wax. I don’t want to spend my last month at CAF going down that rabbit hole. Suffice it to say, it appears we agree that God in some cases will answer a prayer with A if asked directly and B if a saint asks for us. What A and B are is not important.

Focusing solely on why God would change from A to B, the grandmother/saint analogy (at this stage at least) doesn’t address the cause of that change. Going back and rephrasing my first question from my last post to you, *why would God sometimes answer a prayer differently depending on if a saint is or is not asking for us?

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@MNathaniel God not needing anything from us doesn’t seem to get to the heart as to why God at times answers a prayer with A if asked directly and B if asked by a saint. Also not relevant would be the question of why God would have a creation at all. For argument’s sake I’m saying:

• There is a God.
• God created us.
• God wants us to pray to him.
• There are saints in Heaven.
• We can either pray directly to him or to his saints, who will then communicate with God on our behalf.

Can you think of a reason why God’s response to a prayer would potentially differ based on if we ask God directly or whether we ask a saint? Does this reason suggest something about God?

 

[MNathaniel]

Can you think of a reason why God’s response to a prayer would potentially differ based on if we ask God directly or whether we ask a saint? Does this reason suggest something about God?

God is a good Father, uniting his children in a mutually loving and supportive family.

God is dignifying and blessing us by allowing us to serve as mediators for each other.

Sure, he could snap his fingers and provide us anything at any time, one on one between him and us, without involving each other – but that would rob us of our relationships with each other and the growth in virtue and glory we participate in by helping each other.

God wants us to become more like him. Children are made in the image of their father. God is a giver, a helper. So he wants us to participate in giving to each other, and actually helping each other.

Why wouldn’t we step in and participate with him in that? And why would the very best among us – the saints – stop doing this after they enter heaven and are closer to him than ever, and forever?

It wouldn’t be very dignifying for God to make us useless, or to never use us to actually help each other.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

As I mentioned to Tis_Bearself I’m not concerned about whether the answer to the prayer is or is not something that is asked for, only why the answering could change based solely on whether God is asked directly or asked for us by a saint.

Can you tell me why that might change based on who is asking?

 

[MNathaniel]

Say I have two daughters. I want them both to grow in mercy and justice.

We’re having a pizza night.

Daughter A came home from school with a B+ in a class she’s been working really hard in, and you also got a phone call that day from her teacher that she protected a small child from bullies. You’re very proud of her.

Daughter B came home with an F in a class she refuses to attend (she’s been skipping school), and a note from her teacher that she bullied another student by physically hitting them and using racial slurs.

Daughter A’s favourite pizza is vegetarian, so as a reward for her excellent behaviour you decide to make tonight’s pizza vegetarian.

Daughter B shouts at you that she wants the family pizza to be all-meat toppings instead, and if she so much as smells a vegetable she’s going to throw a fit. You are disinclined to grant this request. You would like Daughter B to learn that bad behaviour has consequences and shouting doesn’t get rewarded.

Then Daughter B talks to Daughter A, and asks Daughter A to request the all-meat pizza instead of vegetarian.

Daughter A decides, as an act of mercy and love for her sister, to do so. For the sake of her sister, she decides to model what humility and sacrifice looks like, and Daughter A comes to you and asks if as the reward for her B+ and teacher’s praise, she could instead request an all-meat pizza for the family tonight.

Now, as a parent I imagine I might still lean either way in terms of what I’d decide. But I bet I’d love and be proud of Daughter A even more than before – and I’d be more willing to serve the pizza Daughter B was shouting about, than I was before. Because it would be granted as a favour to Daughter A, not Daughter B.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Now, as a parent I imagine I might still lean either way in terms of what I’d decide. But I bet I’d love and be proud of Daughter A even more than before – and I’d be more willing to serve the pizza Daughter B was shouting about, than I was before. Because it would be granted as a favour to Daughter A, not Daughter B.

My understanding (and correct me if I am wrong) is that God has a plan and has a one-on-one relationship with each of us. He gives us what we need and allows us a burden no greater than we can handle.If God is changing his answer to a prayer then he is straying from that plan all as a favor to a person already in Heaven. If it’s not a matter of the saint providing knowledge to God then it sounds more like God playing favorites and less like a direct relationship with us.