Anathema

[porthos11]

Steven Merten:

Hello porthos,

When Jesus holds a man bound to his sin in heaven, does this not mean eternal damnation to the man? Is there another way into heaven when Jesus refuses to forgive a man’s sin?

Yes, of course, but then didn’t you read the rest of the ceremony? It says until such time he repents and is reconciled. Lifting the excommunication permits him to receive Reconciliation. Reconciliation unbinds the sin. What’s the problem here?

Mortal sin does not require any Church bindings to be effective. Mortal sin is mortal sin whether you’re Catholic or Protestant. A Catholic who engages in adultery commits mortal sin. So does a Protestant. But no one’s going to get up and pronounce an anathema and excommunication every time someone commits adultery, would he?

 

[Steven_Merten]

porthos11:

Yes, of course, but then didn’t you read the rest of the ceremony? It says until such time he repents and is reconciled. Lifting the excommunication permits him to receive Reconciliation. Reconciliation unbinds the sin. What’s the problem here?

Hello porthos,

I think you meant lifiting the anathema rather than lifting the excommunication. There is a big difference between major excommunication and minor excommunication or at leas there was when major excommunication, anathema, existed (as you are telling us that anathema no longer exists since 1983). Minor excommunication, (what we have today, if what you are telling us is correct) only reduces a culprit to the level of a Protestant in not having access to the sacraments. Major excommunication, without having it loost by Apostolic Successors or the loophole of a clause, leaves the sinner eternally damned.

I have never doubted priest’s Christ given power to loost sins on earth in the sacrament of reconciliation or loosting anathema’s. Yes, the Church sees repentance in the heart of the anathematized as an ultimate goal. On the other hand, Jesus is not free to simply forgive the sin of the anathematized unless Apostolic Successors call upon Him to loost the sin, due to His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors to bind sin in heaven that they bind on earth. Unless, of course, Apostolic Successors put in a clause allowing Him to do so. Do you agree?

Anathema
The Church,** animated by the **spirit of God, does not wish the death of the sinner, but rather that he be converted and live. This explains why the most severe and terrifying formulas of excommunication, containing all the rigours of the Maranatha have, as a rule, clauses like this: Unless he becomes repentant, or gives satisfaction, or is corrected.

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

 

[Writer]

Steven Merten:

Hello Porthos,

Can you give us the official Church source where the Church elliminated spiritually deadly anathemas. It was Pope John Paul II in 1983 who elliminated them, right?

On another link there was a new Catholic convert who was wondering what on earth he had gotten his soul into by converting to Catholocism. As a Protestant, the Church teaches that he had full access to the benefits of eternal life through Protestant baptism into the bosom of the Catholic Church with absolutely no threats of spiritual punishments from Popes. Now as a Catholic, he had all the many papal bindings waiting to damn his soul, should he violate one, which he did not have as a Protestant. I think he had a very valid point.

With the double standard the Catholic Church puts on Church punishments, I cannot advise a person to convert to Catholocism until they have full knowledge of all the Church papal bindings of mortal sin and spiritual punishments they are binding themselves to by converting, which they are not bound to as Protestants.

In the old days there was “No salvation outside the Church”. Now Protestants are safely within the bosom of the Catholic Church, according to the Catholic Church, and it is now Catholics only who are in jeapardy of eternal damnation, due to papal bindings of mortal sin and Church punishments. This is really not a selling point when seeking Protestant converts.

Very insightful post!

 

[porthos11]

Steven Merten:

Hello porthos,

I have never doubted priest’s Christ given power to loost sins on earth in the sacrament of reconciliation or loosting anathema’s. Yes, the Church sees repentance in the heart of the anathematized as an ultimate goal. On the other hand, Jesus is not free to simply forgive the sin of the anathematized unless Apostolic Successors call upon Him to loost the sin, due to His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors to bind sin in heaven that they bind on earth. Unless, of course, Apostolic Successors put in a clause allowing Him to do so. Do you agree?

Are you imagining this scenario?

A man under excommunicated dies, but before the penalty can be lifted. But before he dies, he experiences perfect contrition, and expires with a prayer for mercy.

Now will Christ say this? “Yeah, you repented, but since you died before the excommunication was lifted, I have no choice but to damn you to hell.”

This is not what’s going to happen. The man will enter heaven (with most likely a long stop in Purgatory).

Christ gave the Church his authority, but yet final judgment is reserved only to him. A notorious sinner excommunicated by the Pope or whoever remains barred from the Sacraments. But if the excommunicated person were to die suddenly but with a sincere “My Jesus, mercy” on his lips, I have no doubt the Savior will only be willing to lift any excommunications on him and be merciful. Excommunications are meant to bring a person to repentance so as to have him reconciled. They do not determine the state of his soul.

There is a principle that “Christ has bound salvation to the sacraments, but is himself not bound only to his sacraments.” This can be extended. An excommunicated person is barred from the sacraments, but yet Jesus can save a sincerely repentant person because the Church cannot prevent him from doing so. The Church can bind a person with a penalty, but is just as ready to lift it. Only repentance is needed.

 

[Truthseeker4]

Steven Merten:

On another link there was a new Catholic convert who was wondering what on earth he had gotten his soul into by converting to Catholocism. As a Protestant, the Church teaches that he had full access to the benefits of eternal life through Protestant baptism into the bosom of the Catholic Church with absolutely no threats of spiritual punishments from Popes. Now as a Catholic, he had all the many papal bindings waiting to damn his soul, should he violate one, which he did not have as a Protestant. I think he had a very valid point.

With the double standard the Catholic Church puts on Church punishments, I cannot advise a person to convert to Catholocism until they have full knowledge of all the Church papal bindings of mortal sin and spiritual punishments they are binding themselves to by converting, which they are not bound to as Protestants.

In the old days there was “No salvation outside the Church”. Now Protestants are safely within the bosom of the Catholic Church, according to the Catholic Church, and it is now Catholics only who are in jeapardy of eternal damnation, due to papal bindings of mortal sin and Church punishments. This is really not a selling point when seeking Protestant converts.

That would give a protestant serious pause before deciding to convert to Catholicism. Taking all things into consideration if one truly believed all things taught in the Catholic Church were true then this surely would not be a stopping point.

Melissa

 

[Steven_Merten]

porthos11:

Are you imagining this scenario?

A man under excommunicated dies, but before the penalty can be lifted. But before he dies, he experiences perfect contrition, and expires with a prayer for mercy.

Now will Christ say this? “Yeah, you repented, but since you died before the excommunication was lifted, I have no choice but to damn you to hell.”

This is not what’s going to happen.

Hello porthos,

So you are advising Catholics that no matter how much an Apostolic Successor calls upon Jesus to bind them to sin in heaven, this will have absolutely no damning effect on their soul. Jesus will totally disregard His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors to bind sins in heaven that Apostolic Successors call upon Him to bind in heaven, according to you. Is this correct?

I beleive that when Jesus tells us He will not forgive someone that equals eternal damnation. I believe that if Jesus swears that He will not forgive someone in heaven, if Apostolic Successors call upon Him to do so, then that person is damned. Unless of course the Church has put in a clause, the man is not guilty of sin or the Church calls upon Jesus to loost the man they called on Jesus to hold bound.

Anathema

in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate,

Quoted from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia. newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.NAB REV 1:16

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”
**NAB ISA 11:4 **The Rule of Immanuel

He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​

NAB JOH 20:20

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. **NAB MAT 18:17 **

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

 

[porthos11]

Steven Merten:

Hello porthos,

So you are advising Catholics that no matter how much an Apostolic Successor calls upon Jesus to bind them to sin in heaven, this will have absolutely no damning effect on their soul. Jesus will totally disregard His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors to bind sins in heaven that Apostolic Successors call upon Him to bind in heaven, according to you. Is this correct?

Who says Jesus will totally disregard his successors? But who also says that he will not accept the sincere repentance of an excommunicated person?

The Church herself says that her penalties are medicinal, not punitive. If the person repents sincerely but before the Church could formally lift the penalty, it means the medicine worked. The excommunication did its job but the man was unable to work out the formalities. Perfect contrition restores to a state of grace, and therefore, the sin is unbound in heaven. If the excommunicated man refuses to repent, then of course, the declaration of the Church remains, and if he dies unreconciled, then indeed he is damned.

Your posts seem to indicate that you believe Jesus’ hands are tied by the bishops of the Church. But is mercy is way beyond that. Jesus can and does save through extraordinary means, and his mercy in infinite. Never forget that. Even for an excommunicated person who has a last-minute conversion, there is always hope. Why do you think the Church allows an excommunicated or laicized priest to administer absolution to one in danger of death?

Read the Anathema ceremony again: he is damned for AS LONG AS HE DOES NOT BREAK THE FETTERS OF THE DEMON. Perfect contrition BREAKS THE FETTERS OF THE DEMON! How tough is that to understand? How difficult is it to accept that Jesus’ mercy is INFINITE? What will it take to make you understand that penalties BRING A PERSON TO REPENTANCE? If he was under penalty, then he should go to the Church and have it lifted, then go to Confession. But in danger of death, perfect contrition suffices. Ecclesia supplet.

Bottom line: IF a person perfectly repents and asks Jesus for mercy, he is saved.