Ancestral Sin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Richard_I
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Richard_I

Guest
Do Greek and other Eastern Catholics believe in Ancestral sin, or the Augustinian interpretation of original sin? If so, do Greek Catholics agree with Orthodox about the Orthodox understanding of sin? Last, I maybe wrong about this, but I’ve heard Orthodox believe non-regenerate men have a window of light in them. Is this true. And if this is true, do Greek Catholics believe this also or not?
Many blessings! Grace and peace dear brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ!
 
Belief in original sin, as opposed to ancestral sin, is such an important theological difference between Catholic and Orthodox, I can’t imagine that Eastern Rites are not required to subscribe to original sin.

The same goes for anything dogmatic. The differences between Latin and Eastern Catholicism are (in theory at least) liturgical rather than theological.
 
Belief in original sin, as opposed to ancestral sin, is such an important theological difference between Catholic and Orthodox, I can’t imagine that Eastern Rites are not required to subscribe to original sin.

The same goes for anything dogmatic. The differences between Latin and Eastern Catholicism are (in theory at least) liturgical rather than theological.
Send in the Melkites.

🍿
 
I went to a Roman Catholic Pontifical University to study within a program devoted to Eastern Christian Studies. While most of my professors (who were 99% of the time priests) were Eastern Catholics (I did have a few Orthdox ones), ancestral sin was always presented as the position of the East, and the concept of original sin was always presented as being incompatible with it. I would, therefore, say that many Eastern Catholics agree more with the doctrine of ancestral sin, especially since these people often considered themselves to be “Orthodox in unity with the Pope.”

From what I remember learning in my courses, years ago, the East believes that we have inherited the fallen death-nature and death-reality from Adam (the condition of mortality), but individuals after Adam do not bear, in any way, any of Adam’s guilt in his own sin. They also rejected the idea of a “macula” or stain present on each human being’s soul that is to be washed away by Baptism. The understanding of the East, on the matter, goes much further than this, however, because the manner in which it explains the Faith is, I guess the best word would be, all-encompassing or holistic (every part of the Faith is related to every other part of the Faith). The West, it is argued, took a more systematic approach (there’s dogmatic theology, mariology, pneumatology, Christology, pastoral theology, etc). The East never makes these distinctions or divisions…it’s all the same reality, all inter-related.

I think the question underlying the distinction between original sin and ancestral sin is why a non-saved person, upon complete death, cannot go to Heaven. Original sin, from what I remember, answers that this is because that non-saved person bears the guilt of Adam’s sin. Ancestral sin would answer differently, arguing that that non-saved person cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven Triumphant because he cannot be anything other than what he was, a corruptible, fallen, death-filled man, and, therefore, must proceed only further according to his own death-nature even further away from God.

Regardless, I’m pretty sure that the Roman Catholic Church takes a more softened original sin approach in comparison to the earlier more extreme Augustinian position.

Concerning whether the non-Baptized have a “window of light” in them, I remember that we danced around the topic, not using that language of course, always around the understanding that God is everywhere present and immanent in all things, through his Energies. The conclusion that I personally reached in the manner was that God’s Grace, which is his Life-giving Presence, is in all things, and in all non-Baptized people, but is “locked-up” away from us, so to speak, because of what Adam, as our original head, chose.

I hope this helps.
 
Do Greek and other Eastern Catholics believe in Ancestral sin, or the Augustinian interpretation of original sin? If so, do Greek Catholics agree with Orthodox about the Orthodox understanding of sin? Last, I maybe wrong about this, but I’ve heard Orthodox believe non-regenerate men have a window of light in them. Is this true. And if this is true, do Greek Catholics believe this also or not?
Many blessings! Grace and peace dear brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ!
Eastern Catholics accept the same dogmas of faith. Those regarding the sin of Adam and Eve are (from Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma);
  • Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
  • They were also endowed with bodily immortality. (De fide.)
  • Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
  • Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
  • Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) Denzinger 788.
  • Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
  • In each act of generation human nature is communicated in a condition deprived of grace (state of original sin) except for the Blessed Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ.(De fide.)
  • From conception (in the state of original sin) man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as the preternatural gift of bodily immortality. (De fide, Denzinger 788 et seq.)
  • Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
 
I see the difference as having more to due with how leach understand human nature.

From what I’ve learned, Greek Christians see death as unnatural to man, cursed onto man as punishment for his transgression, while Latins see death as natural to man, with Original Grace raising man above his merely natural facilities. The former sees human nature become corrupt, while the latter sees human nature operating on its own without grace.

What a Greek would call human nature a Latin would call human being participating in the Divine nature via grace. Or at least this is how I’ve come to see it. As such, I don’t think these views are ultimately incompatible.

In this sense, it seems to me the contemporary Greek view, at least in America, has more in common with St. Augustine’s view than the Latins, whose current views come more from St. Athanasius.

Christi pax.
 
The RCC doesn’t exactly accept as dogma all of what Saint Augustine wrote regarding original sin, either, though admittedly what is in its Catechism still does differ from conceptions of ancestral sin held by at least some Orthodox churches.
 
Ancestrial Sin is the position of the Byzantine Catholic Churches. As far as I know, no Byzantine Church subscribes to the notion of Original Sin.
Eastern Catholics accept the same dogmas of faith. Those regarding the sin of Adam and Eve are (from Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma);
  • Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
  • They were also endowed with bodily immortality. (De fide.)
  • Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
  • Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
  • Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) Denzinger 788.
  • Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
  • In each act of generation human nature is communicated in a condition deprived of grace (state of original sin) except for the Blessed Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ.(De fide.)
  • From conception (in the state of original sin) man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as the preternatural gift of bodily immortality. (De fide, Denzinger 788 et seq.)
  • Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
Yeah we dont hold to all of these but we do most of them.
Original sin isnt dogma, its a doctrine.

“The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men” -CCC, 389
 
Ancestrial Sin is the position of the Byzantine Catholic Churches. As far as I know, no Byzantine Church subscribes to the notion of Original Sin.

Yeah we dont hold to all of these but we do most of them.
Original sin isnt dogma, its a doctrine.

“The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men” -CCC, 389
Dogmas are doctrines.

DOGMA. Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree.) – Modern Catholic Dictionary

It is not personal guilt (reatus culpae) but like the Justian law, reatus poenae, a liability.

Ludwig Ott wrote in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.108:

Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
The dogmatic teaching on original sin is laid down in the Tridentine Decree “Super peccato orignali” (Sess. V; 1546). which in part follows word for word the decisions of the Synods of Carthage and of Orange. The Council of Trent rejects the doctrine that Adam’ s loss of the sanctity and justice received from God was merely for himself alone, and not for us also, and that he transmitted to his posterity death and suffering only, but not the guilt of sin. It positively teaches that sin, which is the death of the soul is inherited by all his posterity by descent. not by imitation, and that it dwells in every single human being. It is removed by the merits of the Redemption of Jesus Christ, which as a rule are bestowed through the Sacrament of Baptism on adults as well as on children. Therefore children also are baptized for the forgiveness of sins (in remissionem peceatorum). D[enzinger] 789-791.
 
All dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogma.

The Eastern Catholic Churches not only have different doctrines than their Latin brethren but are in fact encouraged to do so. Original Sin is not taught at the seminaries of the Eastern Catholic Churches (personal experience) but not because its a wrong theory, its just simply not ours.
 
All dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogma.

The Eastern Catholic Churches not only have different doctrines than their Latin brethren but are in fact encouraged to do so. Original Sin is not taught at the seminaries of the Eastern Catholic Churches (personal experience) but not because its a wrong theory, its just simply not ours.
However, regardless of the terminology used and taught, the truth of the dogma of original sin is one to be accepted de fide. The term original sin need not be used, the concept however, expressed at Trent is a matter of faith that “Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent”, and that “From conception (in the state of original sin) man is deprived of sanctifying grace [indwelling of grace] and all that this implies, as well as the preternatural gift of bodily immortality.” Death is loss of immortality. (Wording from previous post.
 
Again, it is not a dogma. Nor is it found in any of the Creeds and the most recent mention is the Council of Trent which dealt with issues pertaining to the Latin Church.

Further, why are you using Latin terminology and books to argue something Eastern? Seems a bit weird.

The fundamental end truth is the same but the methodology towards getting to that point is different.

"It can be said that while we have not inherited the guilt of Adam’s personal sin, because his sin is also of a generic nature, and because the entire human race is possessed of an essential, ontological unity, we participate in it by virtue of our participation in the human race. 'The imparting of Original Sin by means of natural heredity should be understood in terms of the unity of the entire human nature, and of the homoousiotitos of all men, who, connected by nature, constitute one mystic whole. Inasmuch as human nature is indeed unique and unbreakable, the imparting of sin from the first-born to the entire human race descended from him is rendered explicable: “Explicitly, as from the root, the sickness proceeded to the rest of the tree, Adam being the root who had suffered corruption”
 
Ancestrial Sin is the position of the Byzantine Catholic Churches. As far as I know, no Byzantine Church subscribes to the notion of Original Sin.

Yeah we dont hold to all of these but we do most of them.
Original sin isnt dogma, its a doctrine.

“The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men” -CCC, 389
Can I ask, and am I worthy 😉 of knowing, which ones on Vico’s list you don’t hold to, Axios? :rolleyes:

Christi pax.
 
Again, it is not a dogma. Nor is it found in any of the Creeds and the most recent mention is the Council of Trent which dealt with issues pertaining to the Latin Church.

Further, why are you using Latin terminology and books to argue something Eastern? Seems a bit weird.

The fundamental end truth is the same but the methodology towards getting to that point is different.

"It can be said that while we have not inherited the guilt of Adam’s personal sin, because his sin is also of a generic nature, and because the entire human race is possessed of an essential, ontological unity, we participate in it by virtue of our participation in the human race. 'The imparting of Original Sin by means of natural heredity should be understood in terms of the unity of the entire human nature, and of the homoousiotitos of all men, who, connected by nature, constitute one mystic whole. Inasmuch as human nature is indeed unique and unbreakable, the imparting of sin from the first-born to the entire human race descended from him is rendered explicable: “Explicitly, as from the root, the sickness proceeded to the rest of the tree, Adam being the root who had suffered corruption”
What I listed in that pervious post as de fide are to be believed, regardless of if you call them doctrines or dogmas. I am not arguing anything from an eastern perspective, the eastern perspective is traditional and mystical not scholastic, apophatic rather than cataphatic. All of the Catholic churches sui iuris accept the doctrines of faith (de fide) from the Council of Trent.
 
Again, it is not a dogma. Nor is it found in any of the Creeds and the most recent mention is the Council of Trent which dealt with issues pertaining to the Latin Church.
Trent is an Ecumenical Council. Yes it dealt with problems in the west but the truths it defined were universal and necessary for salvation. Truth is universal, not Eastern or western. That is, truth is truth irrespective of where it is defined.

The Holy Trinity was defined in the east in Greek theological terms but regardless the holy trinity is true in the west too and must be believed. Original sin was defined in the west using Latin theological terms however truth is universal and must be believed by the east too.

It’s one thing to say you explain the same truth differently. Its another to say you don’t believe portions of that truth. A half truth is as good as a falsehood.

Original sin is outlined in the catechism of the catholic church; yes in Latin terminology but the truth is universal.
 
All dogmas are doctrines, but not all doctrines are dogma.

The Eastern Catholic Churches not only have different doctrines than their Latin brethren but are in fact encouraged to do so. Original Sin is not taught at the seminaries of the Eastern Catholic Churches (personal experience) but not because its a wrong theory, its just simply not ours.
Encouraged to have different doctrines? By who? Vatican II called for a return to your traditions (liturgy, monastic, prayer life and theology) but not a return to a different faith. We are both catholic because by we have the same faith. We can hold different theological opinions on things not defined but those that are defined are to be held by all because they are true.
 
Encouraged to have different doctrines? By who? Vatican II called for a return to your traditions (liturgy, monastic, prayer life and theology) but not a return to a different faith. We are both catholic because by we have the same faith. We can hold different theological opinions on things not defined but those that are defined are to be held by all because they are true.
Exactly, and the basis of theology is doctrine. We are both Catholic because we are in communion with the Bishop of Rome and we exist in the same fundamental theological reality. However, we get there via different methodology and so our understanding of that reality is different.

We are not the same. Eastern Catholics cannot exist as just Roman Catholics but with a funny liturgical life. Liturgy without its theology is no true liturgy at all.

“Those who, by reason of their office or apostolic ministries, are in frequent communication with the Eastern Churches or their faithful should be instructed according as their office demands in the knowledge and veneration of the rites, discipline, DOCTRINE, history and character of the members of the Eastern rites.”
-ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM, 6

“What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of DOCTRINE. In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God’s truth."
-UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, 17
 
As long as the underlying faith is the same.

It’s gets problematic when one starts denying things like the Immacukate conception or Filioque and saying those are western teachings. Truth is truth. No such thing as western and eastern truth.
 
Honestly, Wandile, that is overly simplistic to state it that way. One can say “Truth is Truth, no matter what” regarding a whole lot of matters, and it would not make sense in a context outside of the one it was intended and spoken within. For example, does US reverence for the flag and disgust at its burning make sense within the context of an anti-American place like ISIS-held strongholds? Does the punishment of death for burning of a Koran make sense to anyone outside of those that hold whatever that ideal is? Truth is Truth sounds good, but doesn’t make sense when using only one type of Western language and theology and doctrine and dogma and inserting it into Eastern matters (which vary into 6 or 7 main schools and subschools within them). It comes off to us as being treated as a child who is being patted on the head and told “yes dear”, you can keep your toys (liturgy, rites, etc) just don’t go near the stove (scholastic Latin worded Catechism/language/doctrine).

How would it seem to you if we flipped it around, “you can believe original sin in the Augustinian manner if you want but ancestral sin is Truth, and Truth is Truth no matter what - to be a believing Apostolic orthodox Christian of the Catholic Communion, one must believe it, no matter how it’s worded in the Western catechism etc”
 
Yeah… I dont subscribe to the filioque but then according to the recent decrees and the fact that even the Pope at times doesnt use it, i dont see it as an issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top