Angelic free-will vs. human free-will

[christus_vincit]

Lucifer and the fallen angels had free-will in their rejection of God.

Would their angelic wills have been more “perfect” than the human will? This seems to be the case, as the angelic wills are void of the concupiscence which plagues the human will.

If this is so, then did not Lucifer and the fallen angels commit a greater sin than is possible for any human to commit in that the fallen angels rejected God with their “perfect” wills, while humanity can seemingly only reject God with wills clouded by doubt and concupiscence?

Why then is it possible for humans to suffer the same degree of eternal damnation as the fallen angels? Is not the sin of the fallen angels greater in degree?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Lucifer and the fallen angels had free-will in their rejection of God.

Would their angelic wills have been more “perfect” than the human will? This seems to be the case, as the angelic wills are void of the concupiscence which plagues the human will.

If this is so, then did not Lucifer and the fallen angels commit a greater sin than is possible for any human to commit in that the fallen angels rejected God with their “perfect” wills, while humanity can seemingly only reject God with wills clouded by doubt and concupiscence?

Why then is it possible for humans to suffer the same degree of eternal damnation as the fallen angels? Is not the sin of the fallen angels greater in degree?

I don’t know that we know humans suffer equally with fallen angels. Maybe we don’t.

There are those, however, who believe there is a moment of clear choice at or around our death when our minds are just as clear as are those of the angels.

 

[TomD123]

Lucifer and the fallen angels had free-will in their rejection of God.

Would their angelic wills have been more “perfect” than the human will? This seems to be the case, as the angelic wills are void of the concupiscence which plagues the human will.

If this is so, then did not Lucifer and the fallen angels commit a greater sin than is possible for any human to commit in that the fallen angels rejected God with their “perfect” wills, while humanity can seemingly only reject God with wills clouded by doubt and concupiscence?

Why then is it possible for humans to suffer the same degree of eternal damnation as the fallen angels? Is not the sin of the fallen angels greater in degree?

Generally, theologians would agree that Angels had a more clear choice and therefore suffer a greater degree by far.

Humans can suffer in hell, but of course, the tradition of the Church says that those in hell suffer in varying degrees…this would include fallen angels vs humans.

My personal take is in general, the fallen angels suffer a great deal more than humans in hell.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

angelic wills are void of the concupiscence which plagues the human will.

As regards their wills, Adam and Eve did not have concupiscence before their fall. On the contrary, they had the preternatural gift of integrity (perfect body-soul harmony, and perfect subjection of the passions to the will). As regards their intellect, they had the preternatural gift of infused knowledge (an extensive knowledge of things without having to learn them), something which the angels have by nature. They also knew God and had an intimate relationship with him (cf. Gen. 3:8).

You could argue that the devil’s choice was worse because of his superior angelic intellect, which may have made his choice more informed, and because he was not seduced or deceived.

Why then is it possible for humans to suffer the same degree of eternal damnation as the fallen angels?.

What do you mean by degree? There are probably levels of hell, based on the gravity of one’s offenses.

Nevertheless, a sin against God is an infinite crime because of the infinite dignity of the one offended. St. Thomas also points out:

The severity of the punishment awarded to that first sin corresponds to the magnitude of the sin, not as regards its species but as regards its being the first sin: because it destroyed the innocence of our original state, and by robbing it of innocence brought disorder upon the whole human nature. (S.T. IIb, 163, art. 3)

As to the punishment of fallen man who *does *have concupiscence, surely God takes this into account (he knows we are frail); but deliberate choices are still deliberate. And St. Paul says that the law of God is written on our hearts, and that we know enough to know better (I think in Romans 2).

 

[christus_vincit]

What do you mean by degree? There are probably levels of hell, based on the gravity of one’s offenses.

Nevertheless, a sin against God is an infinite crime because of the infinite dignity of the one offended. St. Thomas also points out:

The severity of the punishment awarded to that first sin corresponds to the magnitude of the sin, not as regards its species but as regards its being the first sin: because it destroyed the innocence of our original state, and by robbing it of innocence brought disorder upon the whole human nature. (S.T. IIb, 163, art. 3)

As to the punishment of fallen man who *does *have concupiscence, surely God takes this into account (he knows we are frail); but deliberate choices are still deliberate. And St. Paul says that the law of God is written on our hearts, and that we know enough to know better (I think in Romans 2).

It seems to me that hell is an eternal state of “separation” from God. How can there be degrees of this separation? Isn’t it all or nothing? In other words, either we share in the life of God in heaven or we suffer eternally outside of communion with Him.

We know that the fallen angels suffer the latter. We also know that it is possible (and very likely) that humans also suffer this same fate.

So my question is two parts: if hell can be suffered in “degrees”, what makes one degree of hell any better or worse than another (if, no matter the degree, a being in hell is separated from God)? Or, if hell cannot be suffered in “degrees”, then why are human beings subject to the same punishment as the angels whose sin was far greater (because of their superior intellects / unclouded wills)?

 

[without]

As a former believer the answer told to me was that God provides us a path to forgiveness with the person of Jesus. Fallen angels do not have this and are forever condemned.

As an atheist I’m struck with the question about how the angles chose to rebel knowing everything about god? What do they understand that is hidden from us? My answer is that this is all mythology… Fun to talk about but not real.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As a former believer the answer told to me was that God provides us a path to forgiveness with the person of Jesus. Fallen angels do not have this and are forever condemned.

As an atheist I’m struck with the question about how the angles chose to rebel knowing everything about god? What do they understand that is hidden from us? My answer is that this is all mythology… Fun to talk about but not real.

Perhaps the potential for vanity (self-worship) is as titanic as all other angelic attributes. Hard to picture that, in a way. But are there people whose vanity is so huge as to motivate them to eternal self-absorption and eternal resentment of God? Hard to picture that, too, but if one knows enough people, one can imagine it with some.

It’s a little different, but one is somewhat put to mind of the “old Mafia” whose initiates essentially declared their option to condemnation in hell as part of the “rite”. The only gain there was money and power.

 

[anixx]

As a former believer the answer told to me was that God provides us a path to forgiveness with the person of Jesus. Fallen angels do not have this and are forever condemned.

As an atheist I’m struck with the question about how the angles chose to rebel knowing everything about god? What do they understand that is hidden from us? My answer is that this is all mythology… Fun to talk about but not real.

Angels don’t know everything about God. They are creature like us, and therefore limited in every aspect. Not even the angels that are in heaven no everything about God. The mystery of Incarnation, Redemption, of Grace are not fully grasped by them either. The only difference between angels and humans is that they understand something fully and completely, to the extent of their capacity, as soon as they are revealed something by God. That’s why the trial of the angels took an instant, while the trial of man takes a lifetime.

 

[ynotzap]

As a former believer the answer told to me was that God provides us a path to forgiveness with the person of Jesus. Fallen angels do not have this and are forever condemned.

As an atheist I’m struck with the question about how the angles chose to rebel knowing everything about god? What do they understand that is hidden from us? My answer is that this is all mythology… Fun to talk about but not real.

From an unbeliever I can readily agree with you. For believers, to be consistent with our knowledge of angels, we know their knowledge is directly infused, Satan was called Lucifer, the Bearer of Light. Ignorance was no obstacle, like it is in us. We have to reason against many odds. Angels know immediately. Being created, angels are not omniscient, all knowing. For Satan to oppose God would be the epitomy of ignorance. So I believe its safe to say that opposing or pitting himself against his Creator is out of the question. But according to our Faith it is reasonable to assume, and possibly to even prove that a human was the test of Satan’s love and gratitude to God for all the blessings he received from God. He would have to humble himself as a result of that test. What better test than to reveal to Satan some woman would someday be called the Queen of Angels. Her name would be Mary. Satan knowing that he ranked higher than her in his spiritual nature, higher than her human nature, would have to pay tribute to her, a mere human. I can hear Satan say I will not. Instead of humility and love towards the Creator, he beheld the glory God gave him and was captivated by the false estimation of himself, he owed everything to God. He became the father of lies, and a murderer, a bearer of darkness by his pride. He owed his very existence and submission to the will of God,for love of the Truth

 

[Dorothy]

And, I remember being taught that the angels, after they were created, had a test. Satan and his followers chose pride.

Those who passed the test then entered fully into the Beatific Vision.

 

[InspiritCarol]

… I’m struck with the question about how the angles chose to rebel knowing everything about god…

I laughed at this because it speaks to *our *nature.
We do things all the time that we absolutely know will hurt us… or others… but we do them anyway.

Is it the same reason we watch a movie with an ending we don’t like more than once?
Do we think that if we want a different outcome badly enough, we can will it so?

I mean, yeah, angels are not omniscient, but it’s safe to say they knew *enough *about God to know what they were rebelling against.

Just so with us regarding so many things: addictions; stress-inducers; drama; pain. It’s not just “flesh” (concupiscence) that leads us astray.
Our intellect, raw and unfettered can so easily choose to do wrong again and again.
Why? Because we mistake/misread our connection to God.
We misinterpret His inspiration as our own alone.
Or equally bad, we misinterpret our own will as His.
It is not a distinction we are well equipped to interpret, especially with the vast amount of disinformation bombarding us from all directions.
So, given that, we slip so easily into the role of “gods” ourselves; fooling ourselves into believing we have such control over our lives and the world around us.
The fallen angels exemplify a truth that cuts to our very core and helps us to see, if not understand, what we ourselves are capable of. What we, ourselves do over and over again. We “sin” (we turn away from God). We knowingly, fully, and without reservation turn away from that Grace that we are given.

If you want to call it a mythology, I am sorry for you; there is no mythology that contains such truth.

 

[simpleas]

Isn’t pride a human will. Angels are not human.

 

[davidv]

Isn’t pride a human will. Angels are not human.

No, pride is a vice and a capital sin. It is not unique to humans.

 

[anixx]

Angels did not fall because of pride, but of envy.
They would not serve humans, who are inferior to them and would not accept that God would raise us above angels.

 

[Dorothy]

“without”,

<<As an atheist I’m struck with the question about how the angles chose to rebel knowing everything about god? What do they understand that is hidden from us? My answer is that this is all mythology… Fun to talk about but not real.>>

They didn’t know everything about God. The theology about it explained that they had a test, and if they had shown faith and humility (they did see enough of God’s goodness to make the best choice) they would have passed the test and entered into the fullness of the Beatific Vision.

 

[without]

“without”, They didn’t know everything about God. The theology about it explained that they had a test, and if they had shown faith and humility (they did see enough of God’s goodness to make the best choice) they would have passed the test and entered into the fullness of the Beatific Vision.

I don’t know the Catholic version… why did the angles need to be tested?

Can you please share a link to a good source as I would like to know?

 

[Dorothy]

I don’t know the Catholic version… why did the angles need to be tested?

Can you please share a link to a good source as I would like to know?

The “test”, like it was also for our first parents, was for them to make the right choice with the free will God gave them. The Lord lets us have our choices, He doesn’t force us to love Him. The angels knew they were creatures and that they came from God.

I was younger than a teen when I first heard this from my pastor; I am now a senior citizen. He got it from St. Thomas Acquinas’ “Summa Theologica”.

If I can find a link other than what I have in this message, I will share it.

 

[Dorothy]

“without”,

ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.html

I found this…it may take a bit of searching but it is the best I can do. It is from the Ethereal Library.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t know the Catholic version… why did the angles need to be tested?

Can you please share a link to a good source as I would like to know?

I’m not sure we can call it a “test” in our sense of the term. Perhaps better to call it a “choice”. If one creates a creature with free will, that creature may decide for or against its creator, otherwise it would not have free will. It’s simply part of having free will.

I don’t think that’s too hard to understand. We all want love to be voluntary toward ourselves. Coerced regard or even love is not worth a great deal.

If, as Christians believe, God is infinite in all affirmative attributes of which we know, then the angels could not have known God “as He is” because no limited creature can ever do that, no matter how wise or how long he is at it. There is, therefore, always a certain degree of mystery to God, no matter what.

But angels certainly knew themselves, and they knew what they knew of God. If, as Christians believe, angels are of such magnificent nature that if we somehow perceived one as it is, we would immediately think it was God and resist thinking otherwise.

So, if humans, being the meat-sacks we are, who cannot even deduce what is two feet in the ground below us accurately, let alone what constitutes a quark, can opt for the kind of vanity we sometimes see or even experience in ourselves, how much greater the temptation of a creature which, for all we know, could logically deduce not only that the “big bang” was going to take place (when, we don’t know) but that it was the result of the collision of two “membranes” (if that’s what it was) and could instantly reason back to what was there before the “big bang” which (I understand) will probably forever elude human knowledge.

Remember the Faustian bargain? Faust volunteered to his own damnation if ever he said to a moment “stay, you are so beautiful”. We read Faust, and while that sentiment seems extreme, we do understand it. And we understand why it’s damning to say it.

And perhaps the fallen angels simply decided (with more clarity than we will ever have this side of death) to say to the moment “stay I AM so beautiful”. One remembers that the name of the archangel Michael means “who is like God”. LIKE God, magnificent beyond our understanding, but short of it. Indeed, even we do that sort of thing, as ridiculous as we are in doing it. And when we regard ourselves as beautiful (in the widest sense) we can get even murderously resentful of any suggestion that we are not, particularly when we know we are not.

Dependent, forever dependent on the well-spring of everything we are, even though the dependency meant ever-enriched wisdom and other attributes. Powerfully grateful always, for that enrichement. And service. We understand they were to serve in some manner, though we don’t know what it was. Perhaps it was different for every one.

Hard to fully understand saying to the moment and the status “Stay you are/I am so beautiful”, expecially in the context of huge wisdom. But it’s not entirely incomprehensible, even to us.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

It seems to me that hell is an eternal state of “separation” from God. How can there be degrees of this separation? Isn’t it all or nothing?

In a way yes, but according to St. Faustina there are other torments, such as remorse of conscience (a selfish kind of remorse, not true contrition), which would vary according to the sins committed.

Theologian Ludwig Ott states in his *Fundamentals *that

The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one’s guilt. . . . Jesus threatens the inhabitants of Corazain and Bethsaida, on account of their slowness to repent, with a stricter judgement than the dweelers of Tyre and Sidon. The Scribes are to be subject to a particularly strict judgement. . . . Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt.