Angels, souls, and eternity

[Paragon468]

“As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness”

• CCC 330

This would imply that angels are eternal, yes? Wouldn’t that mean that they have existed with God since the beginning? Does this fit with the eternal and transcendent nature of God?

On a similar note: with heaven and hell existing outside of time, would our souls technically be in those states at this very moment, depending on the condition of our souls at the time of our death?

I ask mostly for a friend who is asking questions about Catholicism, many of which are about the nature of spiritual beings, and our souls. Thanks in advance.

• Paragon468

 

[Mintaka]

Immortal means “will not die.” It isn’t the same as “eternal.”

For example, say I was an immortal tree. I would start living when my seed sprouted, and I would live until the end of time. No guarantees that I would live longer, no implication that I existed eternally with God when time/space didn’t exist yet, no implications that God wouldn’t make me non-existent. An immortal creature just doesn’t die, that’s all.

Similarly, I’m mortal. If the world ends before I die, I wouldn’t actually have ever experienced mortality by dying, but I would still be mortal until God did rehab on my body at the Last Judgment.

Angels are created beings, even though they are pure spirit and not matter. Since they were created, they were something that didn’t exist; they were created, and now they do exist. Therefore they are not eternal the way God the Holy Trinity is eternal.

 

[Paragon468]

So do angels exist outside of time? If not, doesn’t heaven? How would that work?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Immortal means “will not die.” It isn’t the same as “eternal.”

For example, say I was an immortal tree. I would start living when my seed sprouted, and I would live until the end of time. No guarantees that I would live longer, no implication that I existed eternally with God when time/space didn’t exist yet, no implications that God wouldn’t make me non-existent. An immortal creature just doesn’t die, that’s all.

Similarly, I’m mortal. If the world ends before I die, I wouldn’t actually have ever experienced mortality by dying, but I would still be mortal until God did rehab on my body at the Last Judgment.

Angels are created beings, even though they are pure spirit and not matter. Since they were created, they were something that didn’t exist; they were created, and now they do exist. Therefore they are not eternal the way God the Holy Trinity is eternal.

Immmortal < Eternal. Immortal has a beginning but no end, eternal has neither a beginning nor an end.

So do angels exist outside of time? If not, doesn’t heaven? How would that work?

Time only exists in our reality (the physical reality). There is no time as we understand it in Heaven. As a result, yes, angels work outside of what we would call time.

 

[Paragon468]

Time only exists in our reality (the physical reality). There is no time as we understand it in Heaven. As a result, yes, angels work outside of what we would call time.

Well, that’s sort of where my confusion comes from. If they exist outside of time, how could there be a time when they didn’t exist? Or is it that they were subjected to time before entering heaven and now exist outside of it?

 

[L_Marshall]

Eternal means that something is not created. Therefore, only God is eternal.

The angels were created by God, which means they cannot be eternal.

However, since they cannot suffer death, they are immortal.

Similarly, since they are only present where and when they are acting, they are timeless.

 

[Mintaka]

Re: the other question -

From the standpoint of eternity outside of time/space, all time would be one, our entire life would be visible and would be happening/still to happen/already happened.

So yeah, from that standpoint we’ve already been through the Particular Judgment. Heck, from that standpoint, the Last Judgment is already done.

But from our standpoint, we have to live every moment. And both standpoints are true. You can’t just laze around pretending you’ve got no free will, because whatever you do is free will and it is what makes whatever it is that God already sees.

So I bet your buddy wants to pray to himself in Heaven. Tell him people in Heaven will think he’s antisocial if he just talks to himself. At least he should talk to his guardian angel in stereo instead.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Well, that’s sort of where my confusion comes from. If they exist outside of time, how could there be a time when they didn’t exist? Or is it that they were subjected to time before entering heaven and now exist outside of it?

It’s a really complicated subject, but I’ll give it a shot.

To us, time is a progression of events. We go from one instant to another, and those instants are separated by what is happening in them. God is not subject to this progression as we are; to Him, what we would call time is instantaneous, there is no progression. The past, the present and the future all happen at once, and He is able to see everything at once in a way we simply can’t understand. God’s view of time could be compared to a 2D character’s view of 3D space. That 2D character simply cannot comprehend 3D space, it’s outside of what their minds are capable or rationalizing.

We use the word ‘time’ because it’s how we understand a change. At one ‘time’ the angels did not exist, and then at another ‘time’ they did. That’s how we denote change. That is not, however, how God would understand change. How God understands change is simply something we cannot understand until we are with Him and he chooses to share that knowledge with us. From God’s perspective, there was no ‘time’ when angels did exist, and there is no ‘time’ when they do exist, they simply Are because he wills them to Be.

I know this is not a satisfactory answer, but it really is something we cannot understand. We can approach it philosophically using terms that we do understand (before, after, change, time, etc.) but all of these really pale in comparison to the reality of God. I hope my explanation has helped a little.

 

[Paragon468]

From the standpoint of eternity outside of time/space, all time would be one, our entire life would be visible and would be happening/still to happen/already happened.

So yeah, from that standpoint we’ve already been through the Particular Judgment. Heck, from that standpoint, the Last Judgment is already done.

But from our standpoint, we have to live every moment. And both standpoints are true. You can’t just laze around pretending you’ve got no free will, because whatever you do is free will and it is what makes whatever it is that God already sees.

So in other words, it just depends on the perspective from which the soul is being considered, correct? That makes sense, as our single time dimensions is basically a reflection of the eternity that God exists in.

I know this is not a satisfactory answer, but it really is something we cannot understand.

Actually, the answer is rather helpful. Thank you, I greatly appreciate it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Actually, the answer is rather helpful. Thank you, I greatly appreciate it.

I’m glad it was helpful ^^ God Bless!

 

[Louishacker]

This would imply that angels are eternal, yes? Wouldn’t that mean that they have existed with God since the beginning? Does this fit with the eternal and transcendent nature of God?

On a similar note: with heaven and hell existing outside of time, would our souls technically be in those states at this very moment, depending on the condition of our souls at the time of our death?

I ask mostly for a friend who is asking questions about Catholicism, many of which are about the nature of spiritual beings, and our souls. Thanks in advance.

• Paragon468

I think that there is a difference between the words “eternal” and “immortal.” Only God is eternal, completely outside of time, with no beginning and no end. God created time. Angels and human beings are immortal, with a beginning but no end; we both will live forever. As human beings the only way we experience time is the past, the present, and the future. We do not know how angels experience time. What we believe is that God created the angels before He created human beings. Some of the angels rebelled against God and were cast into the torment of Hell for all eternity. The rest chose God and are with him in paradise for all eternity.

We do not know what our experience of time will be like after our death. We are not in Heaven or Hell yet. However, we might think of ourselves as being in being either in Hell or Heaven’s waiting rooms If we are in mortal sin, then when we die we enter the doorway into Hell. If we are in the state of grace when we die we enter into the doorway of heaven. There is the possibility of going from one room to the other either by cooperating with the grace of God or by not cooperating with it.

It is possible that if a person gives himself over to sins of habitual hatred and deliberate unforgiveness that in this life he will have a foretaste of Hell. Nevertheless, it is not necessarily so. For example, Jesus tells the parable of the rich man and the poor man Lazarus who lived outside the rich man’s house in misery. The rich man partied every day but neglected the needs of Lazarus. The rich man lived in ease and comfort until the day he died when he went to Hell, while Lazarus died and went to comfort in “Abraham’s bosom.” Jesus sftened warned us not to get so wrapped in the things of this life that we neglect our relationship with him until it is too late.

In this life if we cooperate with God we will feel consolations from Him from time to time for our encouragement. We see in the lives of some of the saints how they became so close to Jesus that they were rapt out of their senses and experienced being with him in a way that words could not described. You might say that they were almost in heaven. Death to them held no fears; it was just a step into the heart of Him who they knew and loved completely.