Anglican Church in America (TAC) and the Polish National Catholic Church

[LJinPA]

Thank you for responding Father. I am actually tempted to visit one of the PNCC’s in my area on some weekday to see what they are like (I’m RC so probably won’t be able to receive communion or sunday obligation w/o a grave reason.) I’m still curious to know what it’s like or if a lot of people show up.

It would be nice if those belonging to the PNCC who relocate from the rustbelt to have somewhere to go… unless they just go to an RC parish.

My thoughts as to why people are not flocking to it would forst be the Polish part… Polish immigration is not large unless you’re in Chicago. My area was as Polish as you can get but the youngest generations never met their European ancestors and ethnic consciousness won’t last forever without another mass migration from Poland. When I was in grade school I went to a Polish parish for school since it was the closest Catholic school to me, now this was Roman Catholic and the mid 1980’s yet there were comments as to what an Italian is doing in a Polish parish. Maybe reaching out to hispanics may be of some help since they are growing nationwide.
Here are some questions… As I wondered on earlier pages of this thread about the dogmatic differences and how Rome was able to reconcile even a limited intercommunion despite differences on birth control and making auricular confession optional. Is there pressure on the PNCC to submit to rome on this? What about Fr. Hodur’s views on salvation and hell? Would the PNCC still bless rosaries and sacramentals? What do they teach on venial sin, mortal sin, perfect contrition, purgatory? Is there an official Chatechism? Most RC’s I know around here are dogmatically PNCC but don’t realize it because they either never heard of it or think you have to be Polish. Many dissenting Catholics stay put but the RC is cracking down hard on dissent lately. Yet many so called “cafeteria catholics” are pro-life but birth control and forced auricular confession are the big issues. They can also be issues to potential converts.
I think 2 “selling points” would be stressing the importance of the sacraments and of validity for disaffected RC’s who end up joining evangelical Churches and forget sacraments altogether. Also to stress the unique “centrism” in the PNCC. While society is polarising between secularism or ultra-traditionalism and fundamentalism/literalism on the other. The PNCC for example is Pro-life an abortion yet tolerates birth control. Most churches ban both or allow both and middle positions are becoming rare.
Perhaps repentance and conversion as well as a sense of sin would be improved if articulating them to a priest was “optional”.
Thanks

gurneyhalleck:
As for the comment on Acronyms…yes we do have too many acronyms thanks to all the splits in Christianity and I fear we may run out of names someday and have to resort to the Greek alphabet. Even without “Polish” there are other National Catholic Churches that are not even close to the PNCC w/ women priests…Are church names ever patented or trademarked. Is the word Catholic trademarked?

 

[LJinPA]

What I’m thinking too is if A=B and B=C than wouldn’t A have to equal C? At least regarding full communion talks?
I read the Declaration of Scranton and also read how the differences are more political than dogmatic. Only thing is that on issues such as contraception, or universal salvation are strongly condemned by the RC. Even if they’re not universal in the PNCC, by the math problem I listed above, for full communion to be possible I would think either the PNCC would have to submit to the Chatechism of Rome or Rome would have to recant some it’s doctrines once thought to be non-negatiable. I know that married priests is cannon law so that not an issue and confession I don’t know, but contraception I think is listed as intrinsically grave.
Is the PNCC under some influence by the pope in that he can declare one’s orders valid or invalid at the stroke of the pen?

Also if the PNCC were to ‘proselytize’ to marginalized RC’s or even announce a “provision” to welcome contracepting, divorced or remarried RC’s who don’t want to lose their identity… Would that harm relations with Rome even of they wouldn’t mind losing some dissenters? I’m hearing RC’s say if anyone dissents from the Magisterium they have no right to identify as Catholics and are protestant. Would they have a home in the PNCC?

If there was “full” communion with Rome of the Eastern Churches wouldn’t a lot of them be flocking to PNCC masses to get their sins absolved?

 

[RevDrNorth]

What I’m thinking too is if A=B and B=C than wouldn’t A have to equal C? At least regarding full communion talks?
I read the Declaration of Scranton and also read how the differences are more political than dogmatic. Only thing is that on issues such as contraception, or universal salvation are strongly condemned by the RC. Even if they’re not universal in the PNCC, by the math problem I listed above, for full communion to be possible I would think either the PNCC would have to submit to the Chatechism of Rome or Rome would have to recant some it’s doctrines once thought to be non-negatiable. I know that married priests is cannon law so that not an issue and confession I don’t know, but contraception I think is listed as intrinsically grave.
Is the PNCC under some influence by the pope in that he can declare one’s orders valid or invalid at the stroke of the pen?

Also if the PNCC were to ‘proselytize’ to marginalized RC’s or even announce a “provision” to welcome contracepting, divorced or remarried RC’s who don’t want to lose their identity… Would that harm relations with Rome even of they wouldn’t mind losing some dissenters? I’m hearing RC’s say if anyone dissents from the Magisterium they have no right to identify as Catholics and are protestant. Would they have a home in the PNCC?

If there was “full” communion with Rome of the Eastern Churches wouldn’t a lot of them be flocking to PNCC masses to get their sins absolved?

Yes, I imagine that if the PNCC began too actively recruiting disaffected Catholics that it would negatively impact the RCC/PNCC dialogue. If I recall, the PNCC had to not recruit Catholic Priests to get the limited intercommunion.

I would say the PNCC needs to seriously evaluate what they hope to gain and whether irritating the RCC may be worth what they try to achieve in terms of mission, growth and so on. I am not sure I see much more than has already been achieved coming out of the on going dialogue. Here is why:

i) The PNCC is very small.

ii) For full intercommunion the RCC (giant in the talks) is not going to overlook Papal infallibility and other Marian doctrines that upset the Old Catholics in the first place. I imagine, that intercommunion would be along the lines of the RCC receiving Anglicans in that it would require full assent to the RCC teachings…period. Twenty five thousand PNCC will not be driving the intercommunion train. The RCC will drive that train.

For those reasons, it may be wise for the PNCC to begin to look at other avenues for ensuring their survival and that means reaching out to disaffected Roman Catholics, forging alliances with like minded Anglicans such as the Anglican Catholic Church and the Anglican Province of Christ the King. This sort of innovative thinking could result in growth (eg mentioned above in terms of innovative thinking and the growth in the Antiochian Orthodox Church).

 

[LJinPA]

Part of what feuled their beginnings, and I know this by growing up in the same general area and knowing the social dynamics, when Catholics first arrived here to work in the mines, they were mostly English speaking (Irish), when Italians and Slavs arrived they felt a cold shoulder…hence we have the PNCC and St. Alexis Toth (Alexis of Wilkes-Barre)-a saint in the Orthodox Church who led many disaffected Eastern Rite people back into Orthodoxy. Some Italians went to Pentecostal churches. Tribalism, and later Cultural Catholicism reigned supreme. With generations of intermarriage this is slowly fading. And the recent influx of Hispanics the word “ethnic” tends to refer to the newcomers then 3rd generation Americans.
I guess this limited intercommunion would help a PNCC person if they moved to the sunbelt.

Here’s a potential problem I just thought of. Lets say the PNCC did start to grow and thrive and attracted former RC’s. I have noticed on some of their sited they emphasize that they allow contraception, divorce… Yet because they broke off from Utrecht over gay and women’s issues they got some respect from religious conservatives yet they would be considered “liberals” to the RC hierarchy.

I never heard anyone badmouth the PNCC either in person on the net. I haven’t heard anything bad about the Assyrian Church or Zoroastrians either- They’re small and not a threat. If they started attracting disgruntled RC’s in droves too publicly or even evangelicals and became a threat, I could already visualize a major backlash from the conservative Catholic commentators, blogs, and heresy-hunter types. Fr Hodur’s talk on universal salvation would become an issue and propaganda would come out of the woodwork. There would be pressure on Rome to halt intercommunion or “clarify” things so RC’s don’t go finding loopholes. I can see Rome shaking it’s finger saying “Don’t get any ideas…” to its members. For now they remain small fish and below the radar, which I guess can have some benefits.

 

[padreegan]

Thank you for responding Father. I am actually tempted to visit one of the PNCC’s in my area on some weekday to see what they are like (I’m RC so probably won’t be able to receive communion or sunday obligation w/o a grave reason.) I’m still curious to know what it’s like or if a lot of people show up.

we recorded our Sunday Eucharist this past weekend and are in the process of uploading the video onto youtube, keep an eye out for it…bvmc.org

It would be nice if those belonging to the PNCC who relocate from the rustbelt to have somewhere to go… unless they just go to an RC parish.

we could have several parishes in several places where there is no PNCC, but we do not have enough priests, also, we need to merge some parishes in some areas that there are several PNCC parishes

My thoughts as to why people are not flocking to it would first be the Polish part… Polish immigration is not large unless you’re in Chicago.

Maybe reaching out to hispanics may be of some help since they are growing nationwide.

We have tried, and tried and tried (well some of us) to rid the PNCC of its ethnic stereotype. Our parish goes by “National Catholic Church”, but still people think you have to be Polish. I dont speak Polish, nor do I have any Polish ethnicity in my family. 100% Irish.

Here are some questions…

As I wondered on earlier pages of this thread about the dogmatic differences and how Rome was able to reconcile even a limited intercommunion despite differences on birth control and making auricular confession optional. Is there pressure on the PNCC to submit to rome on this?

There seems to be no pressure from Rome on accepting anything at this point, but talks are slowing IMO.

What about Fr. Hodur’s views on salvation and hell?

*This is a great misconception about the PNCC. Hodur did write some articles dealing with salvation, and to some they might seem to borderline universalism, however, Hodur also wrote about judgment, quite often. I think it is safe to say that the PNCC still upholds the notion of good Christians receiving their heavenly reward while bad people will not. *

Would the PNCC still bless rosaries and sacramentals?

We have a cathedral called “Most Holy Mother of the Rosary” our parish prays the rosary every Monday and before mass

What do they teach on venial sin, mortal sin, perfect contrition, purgatory?

This question requires at lengthy response, I will have to get to it later

Is there an official Chatechism?

Yes, no where near the size of the Roman one though

 

[padreegan]

Yes, I imagine that if the PNCC began too actively recruiting disaffected Catholics that it would negatively impact the RCC/PNCC dialogue. If I recall, the PNCC had to not recruit Catholic Priests to get the limited intercommunion.

I would say the PNCC needs to seriously evaluate what they hope to gain and whether irritating the RCC may be worth what they try to achieve in terms of mission, growth and so on. I am not sure I see much more than has already been achieved coming out of the on going dialogue. Here is why:

i) The PNCC is very small.

Being small does have a positive side, but I think the PNCC is becoming too small

ii) For full intercommunion the RCC (giant in the talks) is not going to overlook Papal infallibility and other Marian doctrines that upset the Old Catholics in the first place. I imagine, that intercommunion would be along the lines of the RCC receiving Anglicans in that it would require full assent to the RCC teachings…period. Twenty five thousand PNCC will not be driving the intercommunion train. The RCC will drive that train.

Have you read my blog lately? lol

For those reasons, it may be wise for the PNCC to begin to look at other avenues for ensuring their survival and that means reaching out to disaffected Roman Catholics, forging alliances with like minded Anglicans such as the Anglican Catholic Church and the Anglican Province of Christ the King. This sort of innovative thinking could result in growth (eg mentioned above in terms of innovative thinking and the growth in the Antiochian Orthodox Church).

I would love to set the PNCC become the Western Orthodox Catholic Church, not holding my breath though

 

[RevDrNorth]

RevDrNorth;5975137:

Yes, I imagine that if the PNCC began too actively recruiting disaffected Catholics that it would negatively impact the RCC/PNCC dialogue. If I recall, the PNCC had to not recruit Catholic Priests to get the limited intercommunion.

I would say the PNCC needs to seriously evaluate what they hope to gain and whether irritating the RCC may be worth what they try to achieve in terms of mission, growth and so on. I am not sure I see much more than has already been achieved coming out of the on going dialogue. Here is why:

i) The PNCC is very small.

Being small does have a positive side, but I think the PNCC is becoming too small

ii) For full intercommunion the RCC (giant in the talks) is not going to overlook Papal infallibility and other Marian doctrines that upset the Old Catholics in the first place. I imagine, that intercommunion would be along the lines of the RCC receiving Anglicans in that it would require full assent to the RCC teachings…period. Twenty five thousand PNCC will not be driving the intercommunion train. The RCC will drive that train.

Have you read my blog lately? lol

For those reasons, it may be wise for the PNCC to begin to look at other avenues for ensuring their survival and that means reaching out to disaffected Roman Catholics, forging alliances with like minded Anglicans such as the Anglican Catholic Church and the Anglican Province of Christ the King. This sort of innovative thinking could result in growth (eg mentioned above in terms of innovative thinking and the growth in the Antiochian Orthodox Church).

I would love to set the PNCC become the Western Orthodox Catholic Church, not holding my breath though

Father, I read the Scranton Declaration and I would say you share much in common with Orthodox and Anglo Catholic groups such as those mentioned.

I checked out the links on the left of your web site to some of your churches. You have some beautiful churches. padreegan.wordpress.com/pnccorg-work/

Much to offer to a spiritually starved world.

 

[LJinPA]

Not to mentioned Poland and the culture is from the center of Europe, a Catholic country that sits at the border between Eastern and Western Christendom. It is also one of the only countries that borders both the Protestant world to the North and West, Catholic to the South, and the Orthodox world to the East, maybe a few other influences, but it is at the center of the 3. The Polish roots can come in handy, just look at a map and see.